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Old 03-24-2014, 12:42 PM   #21
William
 
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

Imps and gremlins are not Servitors. One is not a Servitor until one has fledged.

From the FAQ:

Quote:
A "bound" Lilim - not Discordant, but merely serving a Prince - would have a Superior-forged heart in some Principality of Hell, same as any other Servitor.
Emphasis mine.

Servitors have Hearts, even if they do not go to Earth. For one thing, it lets a Superior keep track of you. For another, it binds you to that Superior's Dissonance Conditions. Shattering your Heart, deliberately or by Falling, makes you a not-Servitor -- an Outcast or Renegade -- and frees you from your previous Superior's Dissonance Conditions.

This is a primary reason most Archangels and Demon Princes are not interested in long-term service from a supposedly willing celestial who doesn't want to join the appropriate Side and get a Heart from them. A Superior regards their Dissonance Condition as a good thing, and someone reluctant to accept that hasn't bought in to your worldview. They will be more than willing to manipulate a patsy for as long as they can, but they will never invest a significant amount of trust in someone with such a risk of flight or intelligence loss.

And even manipulation has its limits. If someone wants to stay a demon, they want to stay selfish, and they are setting a horrible example for everyone they come in contact with, and an Archangel will not be wanting to let that go on if there is not indication that the demon is coming round to Redemption soon enough ("soon enough" varying plenty between Archangels, of course). A Demon Prince is likely to manipulate an angel into Falling either deliberately, or simply because the demands the Prince makes will sooner or later make the angel do sufficiently infernal things.

Last edited by William; 03-24-2014 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 03-24-2014, 01:41 PM   #22
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post
Imps and gremlins are not Servitors. One is not a Servitor until one has fledged.
Semantic point, albeit an important one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post
From the FAQ:

Emphasis mine.
From the Core Rules, p. 185:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demons' Hearts
Only demons granted Earthly access have Hearts generated for them, to serve as their connections to the celestial realm. When a demon ascends to Hell he always manifests right by his Heart. While a demon is in Hell, his Heart glows like a furnace. Etc...
Emphasis mine. It's been right there from the beginning and has never been errata'd away in over a decade.

Demons do not, by default, have Hearts - it's only worth the effort if they're going to Earth. Indeed, the fact that a demon who has a Heart can shatter it to escape his master's dissonance condition implies that there's a degree of risk and trust in making one, since a demon who was never granted a Heart has no such recourse should they go Renegade.
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Old 03-24-2014, 07:04 PM   #23
William
 
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

After reading through my own copy of the core rules, I believe you are correct. It is possible for a fledged celestial not to have a Heart, and the word "Servitor" is looser than the concept of "has a Heart or not."
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Old 03-26-2014, 01:40 PM   #24
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

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Originally Posted by William View Post
After reading through my own copy of the core rules, I believe you are correct. It is possible for a fledged celestial not to have a Heart, and the word "Servitor" is looser than the concept of "has a Heart or not."
Look at it from the opposite direction: you have a Free Lilim working for Lust, Lilith, etc.

She has no Heart. Is she a Servitor? Is she not? If she isn't, what exactly IS she?

Does this mean all Grays and Remnants are NOT Servitors? From some of the blurbs in Librum Servitor, Eli seems to consider his Remnant a full Servitor of his, albeit damaged and without a Heart. And a DP whose Servitor breaks his Heart isn't suddenly let off the hook because he's gone. He's blamed for him and held accountable for his actions. (this is a slightly weaker argument)

So...it's a bit nebulous.
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Old 04-27-2014, 04:08 PM   #25
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

In the last game I was in, angels could take - and use - Lilith's rites and dissonance conditions, and took no dissonance from using her rites - this was a GM ruling, rather than anything stated in the rules, but the rules do state that normally, if an Angel uses a demonic rite, they earn a point of dissonance.

So I'd say that an Angel could theoretically work for Lilith, and she might even have some Angel-compatible plans now and then, but she's the only Prince that would be viable for. Of course, you still probably don't want your archangel to find out...

Doesn't Eli's book imply that he sometimes make use of Free Lilim?
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Old 04-28-2014, 07:41 AM   #26
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

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Originally Posted by Notdan View Post
Doesn't Eli's book imply that he sometimes make use of Free Lilim?
Don't have time to look it up right now, but I recall it either implies or flat-out says that, yes.
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:04 PM   #27
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

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Don't have time to look it up right now, but I recall it either implies or flat-out says that, yes.
P31, "Free Lilim in Service to Eli".
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