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Old 03-01-2014, 08:50 AM   #1
Bayesmeant
 
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Default Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

Obviously they may be used as tools, but can they be straight-up Servitors?

Like if a Mercurian servitor of Jordi hurts some poachers, she becomes dissonant and may Fall - but what if she still believes in Jordi's mission (just not in her role as a friend of Man). Is there any way she can remain loyal to Jordi without being Redeemed? Can Jordi create a Heart for an Impudite or protect her from Dominic in any way?

Or alternatively, if Vapula creates a Seraph, can the Seraph serve him? There are so many unethical studies that would benefit from a Seraph's close reading... would serving the truth rather than the Divine Plan be a thing that makes a Seraph fall? If not, can Vapula create a Heart for a Seraph, and/or protect him from the other Princes? Can he hide the Seraph's nature under enough "upgrades"?
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Old 03-01-2014, 10:40 AM   #2
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

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Originally Posted by Bayesmeant View Post
Obviously they may be used as tools, but can they be straight-up Servitors?
No.
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Like if a Mercurian servitor of Jordi hurts some poachers, she becomes dissonant and may Fall - but what if she still believes in Jordi's mission (just not in her role as a friend of Man).
Generally speaking, Mercurians of Jordi are supposed to be the clever monkeys and not hurt humans, but they're more about nonhuman primates, and if she really needed to hang them from a thorn tree by their ankles, Jordi will be very understanding about removing the Dissonance before it actually leads to a Fall, and Jordi has lower standards for when humans really need to be hurt than, say, Novalis has.
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Is there any way she can remain loyal to Jordi without being Redeemed?
Yes, but Jordi canonically won't want to associate with her; she can go on serving the Word as she sees it, but she better not be doing any Invocations.
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Can Jordi create a Heart for an Impudite or protect her from Dominic in any way?
No and yes but probably wouldn't, respectively.

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Or alternatively, if Vapula creates a Seraph, can the Seraph serve him?
Canonically, nothing Vapula can do would create a Seraph, and a Seraph would be fundamentally unwilling to associate with him, because Habbalah lie by nature as much as Balseraphim, although in different ways.
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There are so many unethical studies that would benefit from a Seraph's close reading...
The closest Hell can come to that are certain deeply conflicted Balseraphim of Fate, and Kronos has better things to do with them than loan them to Vapula.
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would serving the truth rather than the Divine Plan be a thing that makes a Seraph fall?
Per Canon, Seraphim are attuned to the Truth, not the truth, and the Truth is more or less synonymous with the Divine Plan.
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If not, can Vapula create a Heart for a Seraph, and/or protect him from the other Princes? Can he hide the Seraph's nature under enough "upgrades"?
No, no, and maybe, that sounds like a cool plot idea, respectively.


Your campaign may, of course, vary on any or all of these points, but those are pretty much the answers in the game as written.
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Old 03-03-2014, 05:27 PM   #3
Archangel Beth
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

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Originally Posted by Bayesmeant View Post
Obviously they may be used as tools, but can they be straight-up Servitors?
With a Heart? I don't think that would be possible. I'm a bit too brain-dead at the moment to go looking for explicit quotes (might be in the FAQ...), but unless you are running a really gray campaign... Generally not.

(This came up in the SSO campaign, as part of the backstory, where it was attempted -- the result of binding a demon to an angelic Heart caused, essentially, the effects of a slow-motion attempt at redemption (because the Heart was a direct conduit between the purity of an angelic Word and the Self of a still-moderately-selfish demon), which was very painful and unpleasant for the demonic volunteer. On the plus side, they got some Heart-shard ingredients out of the experiment.

In parallel, having one's self/Heart be bound to a Selfish Word (of a Prince), for an angel, would probably result in a Fall pretty quickly. Or madness. Or possibly both.)

If your campaign views a Heart as only a locational beacon allowing someone to ascend to it, and a repository for dissonance conditions, then you can make different rulings, of course! (But you might then want to eliminate the 3 levels of Discord caused by destroying a Heart, as it would be less of a "wrench" to one's Self. Or you could call it a booby-trap that Superiors (especially Princes) stick in the Heart.)

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Can Jordi create a Heart for an Impudite or protect her from Dominic in any way?
Heart, see above. O:> Dominic? Well, it depends on how much effort Jordi is willing to expend in hiding the Impudite. Which is a GM-call. I would submit that canon Jordi would be more inclined to say that if the Impudite really wants to serve the Word of Animals, the Impudite needs to bare her throat to the Symphony and become a Mercurian again. Otherwise... she's just a demon with a hobby that may align with Jordi's interests, at best, and prey the rest of the time.

It's the whole "demons are Selfish" thing.

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Or alternatively, if Vapula creates a Seraph,
Canonically, he cannot. He only thinks he's a radiant being that has transcended mere angelicness.

VapuTech things that can create angels are certainly plot-devices, if you want one, but I'd suggest that they mesh better if there's a middle-stage -- say, some kind of weird demonling that was forced into a Force-configuration that is unstable and open to Symphonic influence. >_> (#mayhavedonethis #theyblowupsometimes)

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If not, can Vapula [...] protect him from the other Princes? Can he hide the Seraph's nature under enough "upgrades"?
Angels can go to Hell a bit more easily than demons go to Heaven, in that it's not going to directly start burning their Forces away. A sufficiently cowed, blackmailed, and/or Habbalite-resonated-into-an-effective-"Ethereal-Forces-What-Ethereal-Forces?" Seraph could be hidden away in Tartarus, probably.

Protected from other Princes? Well, the first defense is keeping it hidden. The second defense would be going, "MY experimental subject! Keep your mitts off!" and not allowing the Seraph to ever go anywhere that someone else (with a desire to possess the Seraph or kill it before Vapula gets some annoying idea) could overpower the Seraph's keepers.

Protective coloration? This is very much up to the GM, as to whether the angelic nature could be hidden in Hell. For More Plot Potential, I would have it be difficult and/or risky, but possible, with the degree of difficulty depending on the campaign tone.

In one game, it might be appropriate for angels to hide in Hell by assuming their vessel seemings and mostly keeping their mouths shut (remember, no lies in angelic! or in Helltongue, either, even if you know it...), or by bluffing with "You don't think I'm a very clean Shedite?" (the Kyriotate blinks its eyes winningly), or by having some minor sort of disguise (these stick-on tattoos are logically the best course of action for this mission).

In another game, the most cursory glance would reveal the divine nature of the angel, causing damned souls to kneel and beg for aid, clinging to the angel's wings, while demons yelped and ran and/or invoked their Prince(s) -- unless some powerful artifact were at work to conceal things. (And even then, the artifact might have a limited duration.)
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Old 03-04-2014, 12:08 PM   #4
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

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Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
In one game, it might be appropriate for angels to hide in Hell by assuming their vessel seemings and mostly keeping their mouths shut (remember, no lies in angelic! or in Helltongue, either, even if you know it...), or by bluffing with "You don't think I'm a very clean Shedite?" (the Kyriotate blinks its eyes winningly), or by having some minor sort of disguise (these stick-on tattoos are logically the best course of action for this mission).

In another game, the most cursory glance would reveal the divine nature of the angel, causing damned souls to kneel and beg for aid, clinging to the angel's wings, while demons yelped and ran and/or invoked their Prince(s) -- unless some powerful artifact were at work to conceal things. (And even then, the artifact might have a limited duration.)
#1: Wait, what? I thought "unable to lie" was a property of Angelic, not a property of Angels in celestial form speaking Helltongue.

#2: I'm reminded of a mini-campaign my group ran, where a bunch of renegades and outcasts got sent on a suicide mission into Hell by Yves to disrupt a ceremony involving a diabolical artefact made out of Hitler's skull and a Force that used to be attached to Legion. For the first iteration of that plot, the angels had devices to disguise them as damned souls; the second party to run through it was mostly angels, so they instead got disguised as their Fallen counterparts. (Though I wasn't there for the second, so can't remember if the Malakite in that party was pretending to be a Lilim or a damned human.)

Apparently my Theft Balseraph's odds of redemption kept fluctuating around the default, since he was frequently the most disturbingly eager to help others at his own expense, but relied almost exclusively on Balseraph resonance to get things done.
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Old 03-04-2014, 04:56 PM   #5
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

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Originally Posted by Omegonthesane View Post
#1: Wait, what? I thought "unable to lie" was a property of Angelic, not a property of Angels in celestial form speaking Helltongue.
...
I seem to recall a reference somewhere that angels take Dissonance when they speak Helltongue - but I don't recall whether that's canon or fan-created.
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Old 03-04-2014, 07:58 PM   #6
Archangel Beth
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

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Originally Posted by robkelk View Post
I seem to recall a reference somewhere that angels take Dissonance when they speak Helltongue - but I don't recall whether that's canon or fan-created.
Canon. Angels who did not learn Helltongue as a demon will take a note of dissonance to learn it, and angels who know Helltongue will take a note of dissonance for each lie they speak in it. Seraphim take two, obviously. The Symphony really disapproves of Seraphim lying in Helltongue.

Of course, anyone pretending to be a Habbalite can say, "Of COURSE I'm an angel!" and be just fine. >_>
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Old 03-04-2014, 08:59 PM   #7
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

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Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
Canon. Angels who did not learn Helltongue as a demon will take a note of dissonance to learn it, and angels who know Helltongue will take a note of dissonance for each lie they speak in it. Seraphim take two, obviously. The Symphony really disapproves of Seraphim lying in Helltongue.

Of course, anyone pretending to be a Habbalite can say, "Of COURSE I'm an angel!" and be just fine. >_>
And the Word of Loopholes gets some Essence. (The Game, or Freedom?)
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Old 03-04-2014, 10:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

Id say NO with a Capital N.
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:53 AM   #9
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

FWIW, Lilith is ALWAYS an equal opportunity employer.
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Old 03-05-2014, 11:52 AM   #10
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Default Re: Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

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FWIW, Lilith is ALWAYS an equal opportunity employer.
Yes, but she doesn't make Hearts or have Servitors as such.
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