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Old 08-29-2017, 06:01 AM   #1
Bullettop
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Default Self control vs. Will

When do I make a self control roll vs. when to make a will roll. Anyone would pause at entering a burning house but does a cowardice duadvantage require a will roll or self control roll? Similarly, anyone could be seduced by an attractive person, but does a person with lecherous disadvantage roll will or Self Control? Just having trouble wrapping my head around the difference
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Old 08-29-2017, 06:26 AM   #2
Dragondog
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Default Re: Self control vs. Will

The disadvantages spell out when you have to make a self-control roll.

Whenever you're "called on to risk physical danger" for Cowardice and whenever "you have more than the briefest contact with an appealing member of the sex you find attractive" for Lecherousness.

If you as a GM would require Will rolls from PCs at certain times, that's up to you.

As a GM I wouldn't require a Will roll for a PC to run into a burning building. It's their job to do dangerous stuff.

And Social Engineering has more information on seduction.
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:01 AM   #3
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Self control vs. Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullettop View Post
When do I make a self control roll vs. when to make a will roll. Anyone would pause at entering a burning house but does a cowardice duadvantage require a will roll or self control roll? Similarly, anyone could be seduced by an attractive person, but does a person with lecherous disadvantage roll will or Self Control? Just having trouble wrapping my head around the difference
The difference it a Self Control roll is on top of anything you are imposing on all players. If you demand a Will roll for anyone to run into a burning building (which mostly I wouldn't), then if you have a disadvantage that requires a Self Control roll to do that, you have to roll twice.

For the Lecherous case for example, you try the Self Control first (if you want to), and if you fail it the outcome of the Influence contest doesn't matter, you voluntarily give in to the seduction. Assuming it was seduction aimed at inducing you to do something sexual. As opposed to say to reveal information. You resist that normally - the disadvantage isn't that your especially willing to trade stuff you normally wouldn't for sex, just that you take more opportunities to try for the deals you would be willing to make - but if you failed the SC roll then *after* you resist or refuse you should turn around and try your own Sex Appeal influence roll to seduce the character that tried to talk you into it into providing the sex even though you didn't pay the demanded price.
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:46 AM   #4
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Self control vs. Will

If the previous responses didn't seem clear, "Self Control" is a term of art in the GURPS rules referring to a game mechanic for overcoming Disadvantages. So some of the replies will use "self control" in this specific sense. There's no general "self control" roll called for by the rules whenever you might think there's something that would make a person (or hero) hesitate. The Will roll is more general.

As Dragondog says, whether or not you want to reduce players' ability to control their characters is more a matter of gaming style, and the tone and feel of the setting. If the characters are supposed to be action heroes, full of derring-do, then the game will feel wrong if they're constantly refusing to enter burning buildings even though that's what everyone at the table wants them to do. You might not want dice to randomly derail your action-adventure. If the game is more of a "ordinary people" kind of game, perhaps horror or a zombie apocalypse, you might in contrast want that exactly sort of hesitation, so players don't have their supposedly horrified normal people running around without a flinch like it's an 80s action flick.

(Personally, in general I try to avoid taking away player agency, because it's the main thing players get to do, and mostly just rely on roleplaying rather than dice mechanics to portray daunting situations. RP feels more like something players get to do, while rolling dice to decide whether or not their characters get to try things (as opposed to succeeding at those tries) often feels more like watching the detached game tokens dance to their programming written by others, rather than being part of the dramatic situation.)
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:29 AM   #5
Mr_Sandman
 
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: L.I., NY
Default Re: Self control vs. Will

The rules on p. 360 of Campaigns make the distinction. If it's a roll that any character would have to make, to resist distraction or stress due to something in the game world, use a Will roll. If it's a roll that the character has to make just because they have a specific disadvantage that is activated by the situation in the game world, and other characters wouldn't have to roll, its a self control roll.

I'm going to echo the others who have advised that requiring Will rolls for a character to do something that the player wants it to do might not be the way to go.

Will rolls are more often used in contests against an active opponent who is trying to control the actions of the character through magic, psionics, or an influence skill. They are also required to maintain focus on a Concentrate maneuver if you have to defend or are hit in combat.

If you just want to character to act scared of doing something that should be scary, use a fright check. Once the consequences of the fright check are resolved, then let them act as the player wishes. Most of the time it wouldn't result in anything more than a momentary hesitation. A failed fright check on the prospect of entering a burning building would most likely waste precious seconds for the character to steel his or her nerves. It shouldn't permanently shut off their ability to take the action the player wants. That said, it would have to be a very bad fire and a very bad consequences for not running into it to cause a fright check. I'd make it clear to the player that the character judged the fire to be very scary and that's why you are calling for the fright check. The player might decide to avoid the danger and the fright check altogether, and do something other than have their character run into the fire.

A self control roll is different, it's the result of the player having chosen to take a disadvantage that explicitly limits the choices of action for their character. So someone with Cowardice or Pyrophobia would make a self control roll, and if they fail, they are outright prevented from entering the burning building.

In the case of seduction, I agree with how molloyd described it. Although, I'd add that in the case of player characters, I wouldn't force them to give up information if they lost a contest of Sex Appeal vs. Will in a seduction attempt. I would use the rules from the box "Influencing the PCs" on page 359, and give the PCs penalties when dealing with that NPC unless and until they give in.
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:13 AM   #6
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Self control vs. Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullettop View Post
When do I make a self control roll vs. when to make a will roll. Anyone would pause at entering a burning house but does a cowardice duadvantage require a will roll or self control roll? Similarly, anyone could be seduced by an attractive person, but does a person with lecherous disadvantage roll will or Self Control? Just having trouble wrapping my head around the difference
Yeeeeah...you don't really need a will roll to enter a burning house. Someone with good judgment might...but PCs aren't particularly noted for their good judgment. The choice about whether or not not to be a reckless idiot who acts with no thought for their safety or that of others is up to the player if they've got a blank slate character with no psych disads. You need a will roll for things like "controlling the urge to make a noise when experiencing great pain", "staying alert on your sixth hour of uneventful guarding", and "not getting distracted by boobs" as well the "resist woo-woo" rolls but not decision making itself.

As for "hot person of the opposite sex trying to work their wiles on you" you are always free to say "No thank you, I have given up sex for Lent"...provided you are not Lecherous. But if its Sex Appeal wins versus your Will that will lead to you being distracted, with a penalty on any Perception or skill rolls you make. So if you are Lecherous but still think it would be suicide to say "Yes, Ms Succubus please make a meal of me.", then you make Self-Control roll to say "Yadda-yadda Lent" as well as a Will Roll to try to preserve some semblance of an ability to notice and do stuff.
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:41 AM   #7
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Self control vs. Will

To expand on what the others have said, up until GURPS Third Edition characters could avoid succumbing to their Disadvantages by making a Will roll. Characters with high Will effectively got the full points for the Disadvantages while being minimally affected by them. During GURPS Third Edition self-control rolls were introduced as an option for GMs which replaced the use of Will completely for mitigating when a Disadvantage came into play. The player could have the character be less likely to trigger the Disadvantage but the points for the Disadvantage were reduced accordingly. Self-Control rolls are for Mental as opposed to Physical or Social disadvantages (at least in the Basic Set), but don’t apply to all mental disadvantages.

So, the answer to your question is that unless you have a Disadvantage like Phantom Voices (Diabolical) which specifically calls out a Will roll, you should only be using self-control rolls (at least if it’s a question of avoiding triggering the Disadvantage/knowing better than to indulge it).

As an aid, the following Disadvantages specifically call for self-control rolls:
Bad Temper;
Berserk;
Bloodlust;
Bully;
Charitable;
Chronic Depression;
Compulsive Behavior;
Curious;
Gluttony;
Greed;
Gullibility;
Honesty;
Impulsiveness;
Incurious;
Jealousy;
Kleptomania;
Laziness;
Lecherousness;
Loner;
Manic-Depressive;
Miserliness;
On the Edge;
Overconfidence;
Phobias;
Post-Combat Shakes;
Pyromania;
Sadism;
Selfish;
Selfless;
Short Attention Span;
Shyness;
Sleepwalker;
Split Personality;
Squeamish;
Stress Atavism;
Trickster;
Truthfulness;
Uncontrollable Appetite;
Xenophilia

The following Disadvantages don’t use Self-Control rolls, either because the Disadvantage:
isn’t something the character can do something to overcome (e.g., Amnesia; Cannot Learn; Cursed);
is so ingrained in the character’s worldview that he shouldn’t notice he has it (e.g. Callous; Fanaticism);
is completely under his control, so he can break it at will (e.g. Code of Honor, Disciplines of Faith);
or is completely contrary to the nature of the Disadvantage (e.g. Trademark):
Addiction;
Amnesia;
Bestial;
Callous;
Cannot Learn;
Clueless;
Code of Honor;
Confused;
Cursed;
Decreased Time Rate;
Delusions;
Destiny;
Disciplines of Faith;
Divine Curse;
Dread;
Dyslexia;
Easy to Read;
Fanaticism;
Fearfulness;
Flashbacks;
Frightens Animals;
Hidebound;
Innumerate;
Intolerance;
Lifebane;
Low Empathy;
Low Self-Image;
Lunacy;
Magic Susceptibility;
Mundane Background;
Nightmares;
No Sense of Humor;
Non-Iconographic;
Oblivious;
Pacifism;
Paranoia;
Phantom Voices;
Reprogrammable;
Sense of Duty;
Slave Mentality;
Supersensitive;
Trademark;
Unique;
Unluckiness;
Vow;
Weirdness Magnet

Finally, there are a few disadvantages which don’t call out self-control rolls that probably should, given as Disadvantage (reason for allowing self-control roll):
Chummy (this is the other end of the spectrum from Loner. Since Loner gets a self-control roll to work with others, it seems Chummy should get a self-control roll to work alone; not that either character is going to like it);
Megalomania (is an advanced case of Overconfidence and the only one I could see not getting a self-control roll because it’s too extreme, but still, maybe);
Stubbornness (this did have a self-control roll in GURPS Third Edition);
Workaholic (a self-control roll probably wouldn’t come up that often, but you should be able to make a self-control roll to attend your son’s baseball game/daughter’s ballet recital, the things you know you shouldn’t be blowing off.)

Last edited by Curmudgeon; 08-29-2017 at 01:49 PM. Reason: missed parentheses
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:48 PM   #8
Bullettop
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Default Re: Self control vs. Will

Thank you all so much for the responses. I really appreciate it. I was only using the Burning house and seduction examples as examples. I guess, my confusion arises from the way the rules are stated on (p.360). They basically state "If something applies to everyone, use Will and ignore Self Control. If something applies only to you, use self control." Things like alcoholism, pyromania, Bloodlust, etc... are pretty easy. However, other times things can overlap. Usually in fright checks. A 20th century character might have to make a fright check upon encountering a giant spider, but would a character with arachnophobia roll Will or Self Control? Is it as simple as applying a penalty to the arachnophobic character's Fright Check, the way cowardice adds a penalty to to Fright Check? Or perhaps a starving character usind Will to resist the poisoned apple offered by the villain? Would he/she still roll Will if he/she had gluttony? Or is that a Self Control roll? Just having trouble differentiating between the two when there is an overlap.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:12 PM   #9
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Default Re: Self control vs. Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullettop View Post
I guess, my confusion arises from the way the rules are stated on (p.360). They basically state "If something applies to everyone, use Will and ignore Self Control. If something applies only to you, use self control." Things like alcoholism, pyromania, Bloodlust, etc... are pretty easy. However, other times things can overlap. Usually in fright checks. A 20th century character might have to make a fright check upon encountering a giant spider, but would a character with arachnophobia roll Will or Self Control?
This is answered on p. B360: "If a mental disadvantage causes a negative effect on a failed self-control roll, you roll against your self-control number to resist even if your Will roll to avoid that same effect under other circumstances would differ." (Emphasis in original).

So, if a giant spider shows up and the GM declares it's sufficiently scary to provoke a Fright Check for everyone, then most of the party rolls against Will, but the character with Arachnophobia rolls against their self-control number for that disadvantage instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullettop
Or perhaps a starving character usind Will to resist the poisoned apple offered by the villain? Would he/she still roll Will if he/she had gluttony? Or is that a Self Control roll?
For a character without Gluttony, I wouldn't call for a Will roll to resist that at all. If you don't have specific disadvantages compelling behavior, in general a player can always choose to take or not to take some action, without needing a Will roll. If they did have Gluttony, then a roll would be appropriate, but it would be a self-control roll, not Will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullettop
Just having trouble differentiating between the two when there is an overlap.
Overlaps are actually pretty rare, since GURPS, by and large, doesn't require Will rolls to force characters to take or not take actions, and most disadvantages with self-control rolls are about taking actions.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:30 PM   #10
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Self control vs. Will

I don't think calling for a Fearlessness-and-such adjusted Will roll to run into a burning building would be inappropriate, if you're doing that kind of thing in general. It fits right in with certain rules in Tactical Shooting.

If you're doing that, high Will, Fearlessness, or equivalents are essential characteristics of typical PCs.
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