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Old 01-03-2018, 04:44 PM   #3101
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Default Re: Pax Americana

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
More likely, they might think they could take the US Navy and still fight the Germans. And in the short term, they'd be right - the Royal Navy was after all still something like 4 times the size of the USN, and with substantially better ships and training. UK naval strategy had after all been to be as strong as the next two navies put together (which at this point would have been Germany and the US, though France might have disputed who was really in third) for well over a century.

It takes more than a year to build a heavy warship, and costs a lot, if the USN is supposed to have a fleet credibly capable of breaking a blockade of Germany it really needs to start building them a couple years before the war starts, which changes everybody's strategic calculations going in. The US Navy after all had been pushing as hard as it could for a better fleet built since the Spanish American War had so extended its responsibilities. If it wants to spend several times as much money to match the Royal Navy (and convince Congress to raise taxes 20% to pay for it) it's going to need to make a serious case that a war with Britain is *likely*, and British strategic planners will react to that by building a bigger fleet themselves....
The scenario gives the US no build time to build that bigger fleet.
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:27 PM   #3102
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Of course the answer is "Let the United States go to war with Britain, and (with the help of the German High Seas Fleet) win) Britain won't back down even more than it would in 1812.
I actually don't think this is a potential win for the German-American navies. I expect what you actually get is an even more drawn out and nasty war that ends with everybody's governments falling regardless of who "won" - that almost happened anyway - Russia and all the Central Powers actually did collapse, the UK had more trouble with Irish Partition and women's suffrage, Italy went fascist in 1922, the US, UK and France all had serious looking socialist and right wing incidents that tend to be forgotten now since they failed. An Anglo-American front that makes the war longer, wider, and more economically disastrous for the places that got off rather lightly in the original history isn't going to make that better. Though I guess if you're optimistic about socialism you could spin that into a better future in the long run.
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Old 01-04-2018, 03:58 AM   #3103
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

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If the Americans went that heavy on the navy, I'd say it's fair that they let their army went light. So if the British are interested in going to war with America to stop this, let them through to Germany at first; let the Americans think they won. Then keep the Canadian Expeditionary Force in Canada, and invade the United States. Next thing you know, America learns a valuable lesson; backing one side in the interservice rivalry is stupid.
A US Canadian war would lead to a US conquest of Canada. Having Canada win round one would only make this more certain. There has always been an American interest in joining Canada to the US. But between British power in the 19th century and the fact that Canada is a genius at being a good neighbor, this became a mere undercurrent, nearly subconscious.

However, if Canada became a threat, the desire to extend Manifest Destiny North would be very strong. The relative sizes and reasources of the two nations would determine the outcome.
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:43 AM   #3104
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

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A US Canadian war would lead to a US conquest of Canada. Having Canada win round one would only make this more certain. There has always been an American interest in joining Canada to the US. But between British power in the 19th century and the fact that Canada is a genius at being a good neighbor, this became a mere undercurrent, nearly subconscious.

However, if Canada became a threat, the desire to extend Manifest Destiny North would be very strong. The relative sizes and reasources of the two nations would determine the outcome.
The "pacification" of Canada sounds like the kind of thing that would make the Philippines occupation look easy. How big is Canada, again? And this would be an "insurgency" supported by the Royal Navy, however weakly.

(And why not Mexico as well? They might try to take back California and the Southwest when they see the US entangled in a world war, since this timeline is built on people making stupid decisions)
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:27 PM   #3105
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(And why not Mexico as well? They might try to take back California and the Southwest when they see the US entangled in a world war, since this timeline is built on people making stupid decisions)
Mexico starts World War I in the middle of a civil war, which in 1914 saw the US imposing a blockade to halt German arms shipments to the Huerta government (sort of makes objecting to a blockade of Germany or Britain problematic doesn't it?), and then invading (sending the marines ashore to capture Veracruz). Though I suppose Germany would gladly betray Huerta in exchange for the US coming in on their side in the Atlantic. And I've mentioned before Mexico matters a lot more to World War I than it looks like, because it was the source of most of the Royal Navy's fuel oil.
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:41 PM   #3106
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

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The "pacification" of Canada sounds like the kind of thing that would make the Philippines occupation look easy. How big is Canada, again? And this would be an "insurgency" supported by the Royal Navy, however weakly.

(And why not Mexico as well? They might try to take back California and the Southwest when they see the US entangled in a world war, since this timeline is built on people making stupid decisions)
I didn't say a conquest of Canada would be easy. I simply say that if the USA were motivated to see a conquest of Canada as necessary, it would happen. Especially if a foreign nation was seen as using Canada as. Cat's paw against the US.
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Old 01-05-2018, 12:08 PM   #3107
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

A generated world I made a while ago.

Millennium, 2025
  • Current Affairs: Democratic Hong Kong paves the way in an emerging biotech revolution that replaced the PC revolution, while corporatism and dictatorships dominate the great powers.
  • Divergence Point: 1990? Centralized mainframes draw engineering talent away from the PC revolution, so the Y2K bug was never fixed and war nearly broke about between China and the West.
  • Major Civilizations: Chinese (Multipolar), Western (Bipolar)
  • Great Powers: Chinese Confederation (Feudal Representative Democracy, CR2-3), People’s Republic of China (Dictatorship, CR5), Corporatist China (Oligarchy, CR4), United States (Dictatorship, CR4), European Community (Feudal Oligarchy, CR4)
  • Worldline Data
    • TL: 9 (biotech, late TL9)
    • Mana Level: no mana
    • Quantum: 7
    • Infinity Class: Z3
    • Centrum Zone: Red
Millennium (Current Year 2022) diverged in the late 1980s/early 1990s with the failure of the personal computer to reach offices and homes apparently because of a loss of programmers and engineers to various government programs. Without the economic boom created by the PC revolution and a stronger democratic movement in China (apparently spawned from their computerization programs), the British balked at returning Hong Kong to the PRC, planning to hold a referendum on the issue in late 1999. The Chinese were angered by this decision, and began exerting pressure on the territory, culminating the blockade of Hong Kong shortly before the referendum. At the same time, the democratic elements in Hong Kong began strengthening relations with other democracies in the region, including Taiwan and South Korea. The blockade in the South China Sea seemed that it would ignite into a global war with the Chinese, but this was not to be.

As there was minimal presence of computers in day to day life, publicity for the Y2K problem was far lower than OTL. Little action was taken to fix the problem and along with the ongoing war, the problems rapidly spiraled out of control. In the following chaos, Hong Kong won its independence from China along with several other cities, as China fell into chaos. The Secretary of Defense assumed emergency powers following the destruction of the capital building by air traffic control error. Electrical power distribution failed around the world. High-speed train collisions occurred on a massive scale throughout the globe. Accidental nuclear war nearly erupted, but American and Chinese commanders refused to fire until after a stand-down order came through. The disasters eventually came to a halt, destroying much of the world’s infrastructure in the process.
The Free Cities of China (principally Fuzhou, Hong Kong, Macau, Shanghai and Shenzhen), have formed a sort of confederation with Taiwan. They have more or less intact governments, but the constituents agree to free trade and military cooperation. The confederation is primarily divided over relations with China and relations with the West (Taiwan faction favours the West, Mainland faction favours China). The confederation generally agrees on expansion, but the fervor varies (Taiwan favours steady expansion through the bamboo network in Southeast Asia, Shanghai is the most radical favouring open support for Democratic groups on the Mainland).

China proper is in a bit of a crisis; a number of governors are merely paying lip service to the Beijing Regime and operating as nearly independent governments. Only directives that are paired with armed force are certain to go through. Private enterprise has had a significant effect on the recovery of China, so much so that the corporations have set up their own regime, centered on Guangzhou. They have been gathering influence in the south, and squabbles between Guangzhou and Beijing have been routine since 2013. On the other hand, people have been predicting civil war would come “next year” for the past ten years. It’s still a possibility that the Guangzhou regime could steadily subsume the Beijing regime, or that some kind of power-sharing agreement could be reached. They aren’t without their similarities though; democratic groups are repressed by both sides and they do cooperate on external affairs.

The United States finds itself in the 25th year of a temporary emergency, but with the quiet replacement of Secretary Cohen in 2007, it seems unlikely that emergency powers will ever be rescinded, as the government appears quite effective. Post-Y2K rebuilding measures have led to the continuation of the 90s economic boom. A strong response to terrorism near the beginning of the millennium has only boosted the government’s credibility.

The European Community was changed by the collapse. During the rebuilding effort across Europe, large corporations quickly took over a large chunk of the economy. While the governments are on paper the same compared as pre-collapse days, any government that wants to get things done needs to come to an agreement with the corporations or face parliamentary chaos.

Lesser powers are likely to find themselves heavily influenced by the great powers or corporations based in them. Russia is the strongest of all of them and it has difficulty dealing with the machinations of Europe and China. While both sides see Russia as a wonderful prize, neither side wants to see it retake great power status, and thus work together to keep nationalists weak.

China is more fearful of the west because of the near war in 1999, and thus spends much effort ringing itself in client states, the closest of which is North Korea. North Korea has seen great improvement in the standard of living because of Chinese aid, as well as developing a large and high-tech military. Fearing the North Korean military, South Korea turned away from the Chinese democracies and pursues closer relations with the United States, who maintain their troops in the region.

Japan is in a poor state. The economy, already in trouble during the lost decade, took a beating as the government was paralyzed in the face of a number of nuclear accidents and other Y2K related disasters. Even private measures for recovery had trouble because of a tight money supply enforced by the Bank of Japan. Today, Japan is swept up in the forces of radical politics, in a way that hasn’t been seen since before World War 2. Ultranationalist and communist paramilitaries fight on the streets, fueled by disillusioned youths. Corporatists in the National Diet press for a military build-up to crackdown after every assassination and terrorist attack. And it only gets worse when the Americans talk about sending in more troops to stabilize the situation.

The developing world faced little chaos from within because they had few computer systems, but the disruption elsewhere in the world had knock-on effects that damaged their own stability. The economically important were stabilized by mercenaries hired by corporations, while the less important countries collapsed into anarchy.

Society is largely TL 9; after the collapse in 2000, policy was to rebuild new, so infrastructure is sharply more advanced than previous decades. Coal power plants are built clean, trains have been replaced with maglevs, air travel is supersonic, and nuclear power plants breed their own fuel. Personal computers only have the most rudimentary user interfaces and while fairly powerful, are not seen in the workplace. Cell phones haven’t developed into smartphones, but instead have miniaturized, the smallest the size of a watch. The internet is closer to the internet of 1997; little multimedia is online. Mainframes and other centralized computer systems are twenty years ahead, providing large boosts to research heavy industries like biotechnology or aerospace.

Biotechnology is particularly advanced in Hong Kong, where a combination of minimal regulation and favorable tax rates for startups create a “Carbon Valley” of sorts. Human genetic modifications controversial around the world, while the US banned them completely, Europe prefers heavy taxation and the Chinese Democracies have minimal regulation, if any. In the PRC, the situation is more complicated; while there are almost no regulations, this is more because there is little access to the modifications. The rich can travel to a foreign country for treatment, while the emerging middle class (difficulty securing an exit visa, regular travel requirements, etc.) has almost no opportunity to take advantage of genetic enhancement at all. Some technocratic elements in the Chinese Communist Party talk about implementing genetic upgrades on the whole population, some going so far to suggest a new caste system. Biotech innovations of substantially less controversy include drastically improved GM crops. These crops have not only cut down incidences of malnutrition, but have also made ethanol fuels substantially more workable. As well, biotech has provided a big boost to medicine, providing insulin producing symbionts for diabetics and antiviral treatments for those with AIDS.

Aerospace developed at a rapid rate in the 1990s. The Americans began constructing the Space Station Freedom, while Europe and China began developing their manned space programs. At the same time, Shimizu Corp began moving ahead with their plans to build a space hotel. After the collapse in 2000, national space programs were severely scaled back. Shimizu’s space hotel managed to benefit from the reduced demand, and was completed by 2007. Though very costly, this proved very auspicious; in the early 2010s, a breakthrough in wet-nanotechnology was discovered. However, creating large structures is a very difficult and time-consuming process in earth gravity. Orbital wet-nanofacture was hailed as the solution, and by 2020, there were a dozen wet-nanofacs in orbit. Demand for water spiked, and an American start-up began shipping water mined from Deimos to LEO.
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Old 01-05-2018, 12:09 PM   #3108
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

(Apparently there's a character limit)

Centrum apparently found this world first, and has already began subverting the United States. Lower levels of the bureaucracy have been thoroughly infiltrated, and is steadily pushing the United States in a technocratic direction. Infinity reluctantly supports anti-government groups and corporatist elements of the government. Beyond opposing Centrum, and tech-looting, Infinity tries to promote democracy to a world seemingly turning away from it. Homeline China is insistent that Infinity does not do anything threatening Chinese interests, hamstringing Infinity. Infinity believes this is because Homeline China doesn’t want the idea it’s fragile enough to simply collapse like that. The real truth is that Homeline China loathes the quick collapse of China so much that it’s making careful interventions to push the situation in Beijing’s favour. They have been making increasingly less subtle interventions and are very overconfident; a lost conveyor remains a certain possibility.
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:30 PM   #3109
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Try this one...

When Francis I was captured by Charles V armies, Henry VIII, who was still on good terms with his wife's nephew at the time, proposed a conquest of France. Charles, who actually liked Henry at the time, heck he might have loved his "uncle," still was both broke and wary of making Henry that powerful.

In this Q6 world Charles had the cash and the need to focus his nobles somewhere else. Henry and Catherine were crowned at Roun and Charles' betrothal to Henry and Catherine's Mary was reconfirmed. Then, a few years later, while the Queen and her daughter were travelling to Spain to visit family, they caught the plague and died.

Henry had a short period of mourning and then wed Anne Boleyn. Several years earlier than in our history. Anne gave Henry four surviving children. Three boys an a girl who seems beyond all possible logic to be Elizabeth, or uncannily like Homeline's Elizabeth.

In this world Anne outlived Henry and her sons. Elizabeth is claiming the thrones of France and England. Philip II feels that Elizabeth needs to learn to take orders like a woman. Elizabeth disagrees.

Basically a much grander messier 16th century brawl. I figure Elizabeth in this world is married to a French Prince of the Blood and the French want her as they never wanted Henry.

Homeline just wants to keep the Turks out of the fight. Centrum wants Mary of Scotland on the throne. They actually think they could easily manipulate Mary Stewart. Mary was a fool but no pushover.

Any fun?
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Old 01-07-2018, 01:59 AM   #3110
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

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Basically a much grander messier 16th century brawl. I figure Elizabeth in this world is married to a French Prince of the Blood and the French want her as they never wanted Henry.

Homeline just wants to keep the Turks out of the fight. Centrum wants Mary of Scotland on the throne. They actually think they could easily manipulate Mary Stewart. Mary was a fool but no pushover.

Any fun?
Interestingly messy to run games in, but not the place for a relaxing vacation (and seems rather stressful to live in).
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