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10-04-2013, 11:08 AM   #41
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor

Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Re: grappling a flier

With due respect, you are not reading what I am writing. Please re-read. To summarize in response to two points:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ack How does someone without Clinging or Flight of their own bring any force to bear to prevent something from lifting off?
By being very heavy. As I have said twice so far, ST is a proxy for mass. It has an active role – that of breaking free, twisting limbs, hitting people, chucking things, etc. – but also a completely passive role: being a lump. As written, a ST 200 person weighs 500 tons unless specifically assigned another weight. This is a result of:
ST = HP = 2 × Cube Root (Weight in lbs.)
You can invert that to get:
Weight in lbs. = (ST/2)^3
Thus, when a ST roll is a completely passive way of representing bulk, ST 200 approximates the effects of gravity pulling on the person, which is a counterforce acting against Flight, as surely as Clinging or opposing Flight would be.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ack Wait ... so our one-ton 200-ST character should only count as ST 25 for grapples?
No, I said that by the math above, HP for a one-ton person should be 2 × Cube Root (2,000), which is 25. This is the effective "passive ST" for the specific purpose of "resisting airlifts," not "grapples." In grapples, a ST 200 fighter uses his full ST 200 for all active purposes, regardless of his weight. He can use it for all passive purposes, too, if his ST comes from strange powers or if he's using his own movement abilities, which come with his full ST automatically. The weight approximation is only valid if his ST is massless, and not the result of an attractive force such as zero-range telekinesis or chi, and he lacks movement powers, and he's being picked up. Then and only then, it makes sense to use the ST calculated from weight as the passive score resisting being airlifted.

In short, if someone has ST 200 and weighs one ton:
Any Active Use of ST: ST 200
Any Use of ST Justified by Movement Abilities: ST 200
Any Passive Use of ST Justified by Weird Powers: ST 200
Any Passive Use of ST Representing Mass Alone: ST 25
In a supers game, it's generally very useful to calculate these scores for each character:
ST + Lifting ST: Used actively in grapples. Used passively when movement advantages or powers that grant ST are switched on.

HP: Used actively when making slams while movement advantages or powers that grant ST are switched on. Used passively to absorb damage, and to resist slams when movement advantages or powers that grant ST are switched on.

2 × Cube Root (Weight in lbs.): Used passively, in place of ST and HP, when movement advantages or powers that grant ST are not switched on.
Supers may choose weight freely. If weight isn't commensurate with ST and HP, though, the GM has to bear this in mind. Very low weight-based ST/HP relative to actual ST will mean being picked up more easily, but also taking less damage in collisions, jumping much farther, and being less affected by high gravity. Very high weight-based ST/HP relative to actual ST will mean being harder to pick up, but also taking more damage in collisions and being easily crushed by high gravity.

Above, "movement advantages" means things like Clinging, Flight, Super Jump, and Tunneling. "Powers that grant ST" is more abstract; it means the character has ST out of whack with his very low mass, usually thanks to an invisible force such as chi, elemental earth powers, psychokinesis, or being the god of war.
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10-04-2013, 11:23 AM   #42
Anthony

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Re: grappling a flier

Quote:
 Originally Posted by vicky_molokh The problem with use of ST to interfere seems to be very similar to one of the reasons you wanted to get rid of ST rolls in the first place: a fight between two ST200, skill 15 characters should be the same as a fight between two ST1, skill 15 characters. But the former will want to roll ST, while the latter will want to roll skill. And I'm not sure if there's a method for normalising ST that is fast, elegant and makes physical sense.
Sure there is. Use logarithms (though in your example, the combatants are exactly tied so it doesn't actually matter what they roll). Determining the logarithm of ST (or BL, or...) is a one-time calculation, and once it's done, you can just use that number in all contests of ST. 30*log10(ST)-20, rounded to the nearest int, is identical to current ST rolls for the range 9-18, and means:
ST 1 vs ST 2 becomes -20 vs -11 (9 point difference)
ST 5 vs ST 10 becomes 1 vs 10 (9 point difference)
ST 10 vs ST 20 becomes 10 vs 19 (9 point difference)
ST 100 vs ST 200 becomes 40 vs 49 (9 point difference)
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10-04-2013, 11:31 AM   #43
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
Re: grappling a flier

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony Sure there is. Use logarithms (though in your example, the combatants are exactly tied so it doesn't actually matter what they roll). Determining the logarithm of ST (or BL, or...) is a one-time calculation, and once it's done, you can just use that number in all contests of ST. 30*log10(ST)-20, rounded to the nearest int, is identical to current ST rolls for the range 9-18, and means: ST 1 vs ST 2 becomes -20 vs -11 (9 point difference) ST 5 vs ST 10 becomes 1 vs 10 (9 point difference) ST 10 vs ST 20 becomes 10 vs 19 (9 point difference) ST 100 vs ST 200 becomes 40 vs 49 (9 point difference)
That's still likely an extra table lookup. Tolerable, but not as smooth as a straight QC.

I suppose it would be much more convenient if the whole ST thing was based on the Speed/Range Table somehow. Kinda like in EABA.
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10-04-2013, 11:33 AM   #44
Ack

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Australia
Re: grappling a flier

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kromm No, I said that by the math above, HP for a one-ton person should be 2 × Cube Root (2,000), which is 25. This is the effective "passive ST" for the specific purpose of "resisting airlifts," not "grapples." In grapples, a ST 200 fighter uses his full ST 200 for all active purposes, regardless of his weight. He can use it for all passive purposes, too, if his ST comes from strange powers or if he's using his own movement abilities, which come with his full ST automatically.
Surely having ST 200 that allows someone to prevent someone from flying (ie, TK, chi, or whatever) would have an attendant enhancement or limitation involved. Because nullifying a particular power by touch, with no resistance roll allowed, is otherwise a very powerful ability.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kromm The weight approximation is only valid if his ST is massless, and not the result of an attractive force such as zero-range telekinesis or chi, and he lacks movement powers, and he's being picked up. Then and only then, it makes sense to use the ST calculated from weight as the passive score resisting being airlifted. In short, if someone has ST 200 and weighs one ton:Any Active Use of ST: ST 200 Any Use of ST Justified by Movement Abilities: ST 200 Any Passive Use of ST Justified by Weird Powers: ST 200 Any Passive Use of ST Representing Mass Alone: ST 25
wait ... are you saying that a 1-ton character can be lifted, flipped and body-slammed by a flier with sufficient ST to do so, even if they are grappling someone?

Resisting such being a Passive Use of ST Representing Mass Alone?

Last edited by Ack; 10-04-2013 at 11:40 AM.

10-04-2013, 11:37 AM   #45
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor

Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Re: grappling a flier

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ack Surely having ST 200 that allows someone to prevent someone from flying (ie, TK, chi, or whatever) would have an attendant enhancement or limitation involved.
It might, or it might be "just my power," at +0%.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ack Because nullifying a particular power by touch, with no resistance roll allowed, is otherwise a very powerful ability.
By default, it's called "being as heavy as my ST suggests," which isn't in any way a special ability. It has nothing to do with nullifying a power, any more than a 1,000,000-lb. concrete slab nullifies a power.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ack wait ... are you saying that a 1-ton character can be lifted, flipped and body-slammed by a flier with sufficient ST to do so, even if they are grappling someone?
I'm saying that's true if the GM has specifically decided that the strong person's powers don't provide effective mass. By default they do, but if they don't, there's a tradeoff: more vulnerability to being lifted up, but less vulnerability to collisions and gravity, and a rather amazing jumping ability.

The flying character here isn't being ****** out of anything; rather, someone is trying to cheese the rules to let ST 60 pick up 1,000,000 lbs. If his victim weighs 1/500 what he should, then it's no longer cheesy . . . but then his victim should also get his points' worth out all that ST. Normally, that ST provides mass and near-invulnerability to being picked up, but if it doesn't, then it instead provides super-leaping, innate resistance to gravity, and reduced injury in slams. It's either/or; if high ST provides neither mass nor these other effects, then it needs a deep discount for being near-worthless, and it's the ST 200 guy who's being ****** if he doesn't get that.
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10-04-2013, 11:47 AM   #46
Nereidalbel

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Re: grappling a flier

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kromm I'm saying that's true if the GM has specifically decided that the strong person's powers don't provide effective mass. By default they do, but if they don't, there's a tradeoff: more vulnerability to being lifted up, but less vulnerability to collisions and gravity, and a rather amazing jumping ability.
Also true if the player wants to look like an anime character, with extremely high ST, but weighing far, far less than they should. This even fits in with characters who can throw a tank, but get knocked back every time somebody punches them.

 10-04-2013, 11:53 AM #47 Mathulhu   Join Date: May 2009 Re: grappling a flier Tangent Can anyone figure out for me some guidelines for how odd combinations of weight and Strength relate? The example I am thinking of is a small woman, 150cm, who is exceptionally strong ST 15, but not super exceptional in either. Hmm...Skinny and Over Weight seem to cover this sort of. __________________ Maxwell Kensington "Snotkins" Von Smacksalot III
10-04-2013, 11:53 AM   #48
Ack

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Australia
Re: grappling a flier

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kromm It might, or it might be "just my power," at +0%. By default, it's called "being as heavy as my ST suggests," which isn't in any way a special ability. It has nothing to do with nullifying a power, any more than a 1,000,000-lb. concrete slab nullifies a power. I'm saying that's true if the GM has specifically decided that the strong person's powers don't provide effective mass. By default they do, but if they don't, there's a tradeoff: more vulnerability to being lifted up, but less vulnerability to collisions and gravity, and a rather amazing jumping ability. The flying character here isn't being ****** out of anything; rather, someone is trying to cheese the rules to let ST 60 pick up 1,000,000 lbs. If his victim weighs 1/500 what he should, then it's no longer cheesy . . . but then his victim should also get his points' worth out all that ST. Normally, that ST provides mass and near-invulnerability to being picked up, but if it doesn't, then it instead provides super-leaping, innate resistance to gravity, and reduced injury in slams. It's either/or; if high ST provides neither mass nor these other effects, then it needs a deep discount for being near-worthless, and it's the ST 200 guy who's being ****** if he doesn't get that.
The character, by the way, is based on the Hulk. He's big and tough, is all.

Personally, I don't see my character attempting to pick up the NPC as being cheesy, when I ask "How much does he weigh?" and the GM says, "A bit over one ton." You weigh what you weigh.

I am personally in tune with the "ST for Leaping" optional rule (although it produces some AWESOME destruction if pushed too far).

But seriously, choosing one's weight happens at character creation. If the player gets to say "My character weighs this much" regardless of ST or HT (both of which I personally think contribute to weight in the real world) then if his 50 lb character gets picked up and slung around all the time, or if his 350 pound blob has trouble getting through doors - it's no-one's fault but his. You pick the weight you want, and you live with the consequences. And if it means that you are light enough to be flown away with when you Grapple someone, then so be it. Alternatively, if it means that you are too heavy for some footbridges, therein lies a problem also. Being light is not always a penalty; being heavy is not always a bonus. You buy the ST, you get the ability to pick up small trucks, or always being able to open that stubborn pickle jar; you also get HP (because you paid for it) and the ability to punch the average mecha's lights out.

But if you choose to have ST of 200 and to weigh in at one ton, then you get the bonuses and penalties of weighing one ton. There should be no 'extra compensation' for choosing that weight. No-one forced it on you.

I understand GURPS to be a generic system. Can we please keep it that way?

 10-04-2013, 12:00 PM #49 Ack     Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Australia Re: grappling a flier So wait; if I get this right, you are indeed stating that if the heavy character has no movement powers (he doesn't) and if he has no specific power to give him weird types of ST (based on Hulk) then ... he can be lifted up by a flier whom he is grappling. Correct?
10-04-2013, 12:00 PM   #50
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor

Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Re: grappling a flier

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nereidalbel Also true if the player wants to look like an anime character, with extremely high ST, but weighing far, far less than they should. This even fits in with characters who can throw a tank, but get knocked back every time somebody punches them.
Yep. Fundamentally, ST out of whack with mass is justifiable up to a point by things like knowing how to exploit leverage and having less fat and bone than is usually assumed for a human. In most games, it's most sensible just to ignore the discrepancy. If it bothers a given gaming group, though, they can track the "effective ST" that mass would give for the rare cases where ST stands in for mass . . . mostly, for resisting being picked up. For likely adult weight values:
Up to 91 lbs.: Effective ST 8 for resisting being picked up.
Up to 124 lbs.: Effective ST 9 for resisting being picked up.
Up to 166 lbs.: Effective ST 10 for resisting being picked up.
Up to 215 lbs.: Effective ST 11 for resisting being picked up.
Up to 274 lbs.: Effective ST 12 for resisting being picked up.
Up to 342 lbs.: Effective ST 13 for resisting being picked up.
All of this is irrespective of bought-and-paid-for ST.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My LiveJournal [Just GURPS News][Just The Company]