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Old 09-30-2013, 05:37 PM   #11
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Krokodil

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Yes, real-world addicts don't get to do that.
Sure they do, as long as they have the money and contacts required.
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Old 09-30-2013, 05:58 PM   #12
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Default Re: Krokodil

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Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
Interesting. I didn't think of it like that. And yeah, I agree that opiates should be one addiction with cost depending on your drug of choice from that group. And methadone (which is an opioid but not an opiate) as a mitigator.
Please don't make the mistake that Methadone us only used for opiate replacement therapy.

Methadone (a synthetic opioid) is a strong pain killer that is only recently being used as such in the US. It does, however, have some links with some heart problems which is why Lee can no longer take it and is back on opioids again.

Chronic pain sucks.
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Old 09-30-2013, 06:07 PM   #13
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Default Re: Krokodil

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Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
I'm getting a page about information content of DNA ... but as Kromm says it's entirely possible that the tissue damage is due to an impurity rather than inherent to the action of the drug itself. Either that or the means of administration.

But it's a worthwhile question - how do we model addictions that have a significant harm beyond the addicition itself and inflict (as per example) toxic damage or some other detriment?
Krokidil is roughly an eighth the cost of heroin, that's the appeal of it. How it would work in a campaign would probably be that the addict can get a cheap fix, but a resisted roll would be needed to avoid toxic damage and possibly a random disadvantage(sympton enhancement on the poison, one arm, one leg, etc.

Last edited by Libertine; 09-30-2013 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:24 AM   #14
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Default Re: Krokodil

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Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
Please don't make the mistake that Methadone us only used for opiate replacement therapy.

Methadone (a synthetic opioid) is a strong pain killer that is only recently being used as such in the US. It does, however, have some links with some heart problems which is why Lee can no longer take it and is back on opioids again.

Chronic pain sucks.
I know. Because of the pharmacological properties it's difficult to OD on. But you were right to point it out.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:04 PM   #15
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Default Re: Krokodil

Is there any reason why an acid-base extraction wouldn't clean this up? Some of the meth that comes from home labs is ridiculously pure (much more so than it used to be) and it is, as far as I can tell, the same reaction (RP/I).
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:09 PM   #16
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Is there any reason why an acid-base extraction wouldn't clean this up?
Poor quality drugs are not usually made because it's actually impossible to make them better -- just more expensive, and the makers are rarely concerned with the health of their buyers.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: Krokodil

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Is there any reason why an acid-base extraction wouldn't clean this up?
Pure desomorphine can be extracted, I'm sure. I don't know if it makes sense to do the extraction on a protonated solution or not (I really try to avoid working out pathways for controlled substances). I doubt that it can be easily extracted with stovetop methods and household chemicals by somebody with no organic chemistry background while withdrawing from heroin.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:29 PM   #18
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You'd be surprised. I always found crystallization to be a bear, but I know meth cooks that can do it blindfolded. How would you get the codeine without an a/b extraction to begin with? In the US ephedrine has all kinds of glue in it so you can't just chuck it into your reaction. What level of chemistry knowledge is required to synth basic illegals? Is it a technique? Can I have a 15 in Birch reduction and know nothing about o-chem? I could probably rank the various reactions: distilling alcohol, Birch reduction, RP/I, Sandemeyer reduction of GABA, etc with LSD as the holy grail.

My gut feeling is that the culture hasn't caught up and that you'll be having pharmaceutically pure desomorphine on the streets within a few years. My reading suggests other paths that produce much stronger drugs with uncontrolled reagents. The only thing that keeps heroin down is the availability of acetic anhydride. If the cooks have found a way around that...well, maybe we'll have legalization before too many people die horribly.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:32 PM   #19
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What level of chemistry knowledge is required to synth basic illegals?
The chemistry skill is for figuring out a recipe for turning your available ingredients into finished product. If a recipe is available, the skill to turn it into a finished product isn't even chemistry, it's pharmacology -- except, of course, that whenever a good recipe is available for one set of ingredients, they go and make one of those ingredients unavailable.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:49 PM   #20
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Default Re: Krokodil

The specific details of these processes are not really suitable for discussion here, but we can speak in generalities . . .

While I'm a physicist and not a chemist by education, I was friends with many people my age whose parents were doing this stuff in the 1960s. Most of it starts with basic solvent extractions: find something that the desirable stuff dissolves in but the binders/impurities do not. That's the simplest process, but while it's safe when it's cold water (e.g., getting codeine out of acetominophen-codeine mixtures), it's far from safe when it's something like CCl4 stolen from the janitor's closet or an old fire extinguisher. The same goes for any synthesis involving surface catalysis . . . just bust open an old car exhaust or battery and go for it. The dangers are often more in the cost-cutting and use of poorly understood gear than in bad chemistry per se – I absolutely agree that it should be possible for total non-chemists to learn these processes, probably as One-Task Wonder perks, but that those without Chemistry can't follow up with good judgment on cleaning up the end product.
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