Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-27-2013, 10:21 PM   #31
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
For TK wouldn't IQ or maybe Will (plus talent if any) make more sense than HT?
Depends on how it works. Will would be good if on a failure you just lose control. IQ doesn't really work for me, but if in either case you maybe suffer a fright check instead of HP of damage that might work. HT would be if you're physically straining yourself.

Or maybe you fail your Will roll and you suffer FP instead of HP, or suffer a Pain affliction (headaches) instead of a Pain affliction (pulled muscle).

I'm OK with any, so long as it's a good story. :-)
__________________
The Deadly Spring "...probably the most infamous Pyramid article of all time."-Jeffro's Car Wars Blog
Gaming Ballistic: Home of Gaming Ballistic, LLC and my blog.
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2013, 10:57 PM   #32
MatthewVilter
 
MatthewVilter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles County
Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Well you use DX or skill to do "complex actions" and IQ to "use your TK properly" but Will really feels like it maps to HT better. Really rolling vs HT is basically rolling vs the "power source" of your ST so whatever the "source" of your TK is you should somehow roll against that.

This is all new territory though; traditionally ST and TK just...work. No need for rolls against other stats. Even if, in retrospect, rolling against ST (which is, as Kromm says, an extrinsic stat) is a bit silly.
__________________
Use Steam? Check out the GURPS Fan Club!
Melissa - Lost in Dreams - World jumping engineering student.
Greg - Day 1 - SFX expert, single father, and zombie outbreak survivor.
MatthewVilter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 10:26 AM   #33
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyv, Ukraine
Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I'm on record as being not-a-fan of ST rolls. I even worked out an alternate system (granted, not a lot of playtest in that one) that really did away with ST rolls again.

So, when it came to Pickups, I asked PK and Kromm if they'd mind if I used the same table we'd worked out for grappling encumbrance, where you had a multiple of BL be a modifier, and basically asked what I'd roll against. Well, you're straining to just lift him, and avoid injury. That's a HT roll. They agreed that in this case (a BOX on a very particular kind of move that really shouldn't come up much in combat) it was an OK approach.

You want a ST roll? Go right ahead. The basic rule for pickups is "you can't, unless your target is less than 4xBL." I thought that wasn't quite right, since I can and have picked up someone closer to 6xBL in a match.

Anyway, I thought treating the weight-to-BL ratio as a modifier to a HT roll was better than a ST roll. I got permission. The entire book is optional anyway, so there's always that!
Okay, you oppose ST rolls. But the opponent in fact rolls (Trained) ST to resist a pickup.

So in a situation like this:
Psionetto (TK 100, Will 15, Judo 15)
is lifting
Iron Spidey (mass 150lbs, ST100, DX and Judo 15)

This is 150/2000 = 0.075, then add 3, looking up the modifier, for a +6 bonus to the HT (i.e. Will) roll.

So Psionetto rolls 15+6 = 21 against Spidey's 100. It is very unclear what Iron Spidey does that so easily thwarts Psionetto's attempt to just pull upward assuming an established grapple and a failure to break free, even though their BLs are evenly matched, and the mass-to-BL is less than 4BL (compare to e.g. Backbreaker in MA, where's it's a matter of breaking free).

----

Now, I've only read pages 24 and 8 for this example, so maybe I'm missing something. And yes, I realise that spending CP can ease the roll, but this gives a huge advantage to Spidey when he tries to break free after the CP expenditure.
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
Also, GURPS Discord is a nice place for (faster) Q&A and overall GURPS dicussion.
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 10:42 AM   #34
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Okay, you oppose ST rolls. But the opponent in fact rolls (Trained) ST to resist a pickup.

So in a situation like this:
Psionetto (TK 100, Will 15, Judo 15)
is lifting
Iron Spidey (mass 150lbs, ST100, DX and Judo 15)

This is 150/2000 = 0.075, then add 3, looking up the modifier, for a +6 bonus to the HT (i.e. Will) roll.

So Psionetto rolls 15+6 = 21 against Spidey's 100. It is very unclear what Iron Spidey does that so easily thwarts Psionetto's attempt to just pull upward assuming an established grapple and a failure to break free, even though their BLs are evenly matched, and the mass-to-BL is less than 4BL (compare to e.g. Backbreaker in MA, where's it's a matter of breaking free).

----

Now, I've only read pages 24 and 8 for this example, so maybe I'm missing something. And yes, I realise that spending CP can ease the roll, but this gives a huge advantage to Spidey when he tries to break free after the CP expenditure.
establishing a grapple inflicts control points which lowered the opposed strength score. Strength 100 is probably on the order of 30 to 50 control points, which will significantly lower Spiderman strength.

Also, a telekinetic grapple and a regular physical two handed grapple are indistinguishable unless the grappler with telekinesis has paid special points. There is nothing different about a telekinetic grapple, and a two-handed physical grapple unless those points have been spent. If spidey can resist a physical grapple with his strength, the same applies to a telekinetic one.
__________________
The Deadly Spring "...probably the most infamous Pyramid article of all time."-Jeffro's Car Wars Blog
Gaming Ballistic: Home of Gaming Ballistic, LLC and my blog.
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 10:55 AM   #35
Not another shrubbery
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Does See Invisible work on Telekinesis?
I'd say so, as long as your See Invisible matched either the source OR the descriptive category of the Telekinesis. A Detect would probably be better for most builds, I think.
Not another shrubbery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 02:10 PM   #36
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyv, Ukraine
Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
establishing a grapple inflicts control points which lowered the opposed strength score. Strength 100 is probably on the order of 30 to 50 control points, which will significantly lower Spiderman strength.
So, 100 - 50 = 50. Still significantly higher than HT+6 (Will+6). And failing that HT (Will) roll will cause HP or FP damage based on TK ST 50, or an equally horrific affliction.

Unlikely, but it becomes more common under more human conditions. Assuming 2 pickup attempts per minute of wrestling on average, a 90-minute training session, and a 50% of it spent actually wrestling (numbers very roughly WMG'd based on vague memory of university years). Assuming that beginners will have ST10ish and weight 150ish lbs, that gives us HT-11 rolls, failing which causes damage. But I've been picked up and have picked up people multiple times, despite having unremarkable ST and HT, and neither experienced nor saw such nasty outcomes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Also, a telekinetic grapple and a regular physical two handed grapple are indistinguishable unless the grappler with telekinesis has paid special points. There is nothing different about a telekinetic grapple, and a two-handed physical grapple unless those points have been spent. If spidey can resist a physical grapple with his strength, the same applies to a telekinetic one.
Okay, sure, it applies to a regular grapples too, albeit in a different way. E.g.:

Let's say I want to pick up a house cat - BL, which is a roll of HT+5. For a couch potato with HT9 and Unfit, that's a 13 against the cat's DX of 14. 28% chance of being able to successfully pick up a cat. A bit low, isn't it?
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
Also, GURPS Discord is a nice place for (faster) Q&A and overall GURPS dicussion.
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 02:42 PM   #37
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Let's say I want to pick up a house cat - BL, which is a roll of HT+5. For a couch potato with HT9 and Unfit, that's a 13 against the cat's DX of 14. 28% chance of being able to successfully pick up a cat. A bit low, isn't it?
If the cat isn't resisting you shouldn't even need to roll.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 09-28-2013 at 03:54 PM.
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 02:54 PM   #38
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
So, 100 - 50 = 50. Still significantly higher than HT+6 (Will+6). And failing that HT (Will) roll will cause HP or FP damage based on TK ST 50, or an equally horrific affliction.
Yeah, lifting up a horrifically strong foe IN COMBAT after spending a single second to limit their responses is hard. This works for me. An Unresisting foe can be lifted with a Ready maneuver.

Quote:
Unlikely, but it becomes more common under more human conditions. Assuming 2 pickup attempts per minute of wrestling on average, a 90-minute training session, and a 50% of it spent actually wrestling (numbers very roughly WMG'd based on vague memory of university years). Assuming that beginners will have ST10ish and weight 150ish lbs, that gives us HT-11 rolls, failing which causes damage. But I've been picked up and have picked up people multiple times, despite having unremarkable ST and HT, and neither experienced nor saw such nasty outcomes.
In lethal combat? No? Then not apt comparison.

Quote:
Okay, sure, it applies to a regular grapples too, albeit in a different way. E.g.:

Let's say I want to pick up a house cat - BL, which is a roll of HT+5. For a couch potato with HT9 and Unfit, that's a 13 against the cat's DX of 14. 28% chance of being able to successfully pick up a cat. A bit low, isn't it?
After a single grapple? Not at all. spend a few seconds restraining the cat. Also you forgot again that a ST 10 vs ST 5 housecat inflicts -1 DX and -2 ST per 2 CP inflicted due to scaling. A few successful grapples and the cat just loses, esp if you spend CP.

Again, pickups are for combat. You can pick up a friendly housecat with a ready.

I did say in a pevious thread that there needs to be a threshold below which the HT roll is irrelevant. I think I suggested BL/2 or so.
__________________
The Deadly Spring "...probably the most infamous Pyramid article of all time."-Jeffro's Car Wars Blog
Gaming Ballistic: Home of Gaming Ballistic, LLC and my blog.
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 03:00 PM   #39
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

[QUOTE=MatthewVilter;1652014traditionally ST and TK just...work.[/QUOTE]Traditionally, magic just... works. Stabbing people just... happens. But in GURPS and most RPGs, there's some sort of skill or combat roll involved. Fiction rarely takes time out to discuss probabilities, much less make die rolls, but that doesn't mean the abilities "just work" in a game context.

GURPS TK has never "just worked". 3e Psionics had skills for everything. 4e has the roll versus IQ (avoiding the explicit skills, which promptly get re-introduced in Psi Powers). GURPS ST only "just works" for basic uses like encumbrance. Exertion calls for skills like Lifting or Will rolls for Extra Effort, not to mention combat skills like Wrestling or Karate. And ST-based damage doesn't "just work" every time; there's a damage roll.

The Basic description of applied ST for "Lifting and Moving Things" (B353) says "To pick up an unwilling character, you must take a second to grapple him first (see Grappling, p. 370). He may attempt to break free during the time it takes you to pick him up!" -- the same procedure as described here for TK.

And the description of the TK Advantage says ""No rolls are necessary for ordinary lifting and movement." Combat uses aren't "ordinary".

I don't see an inconsistency.

If anything, the argument ought to devolve into differences between TK, Levitation, and Apportation.
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 04:32 PM   #40
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyv, Ukraine
Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Yeah, lifting up a horrifically strong foe IN COMBAT after spending a single second to limit their responses is hard. This works for me. An Unresisting foe can be lifted with a Ready maneuver.
Yeah, but if you proportionally reduce the STs and the mass of the target, it is no longer like that.

ST 100, BL 2,000 lifter vs. ST 100, 150-lb target
is very hard, because you roll your HT+6ish against ST50.

But when a
ST 5, BL 5 lifter vs. ST 5, 0.375lb target
tries to lift the target, the roll becomes HT+6ish against the target's DX/Judo/etc., which is definitely easier than 50.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
In lethal combat? No? Then not apt comparison.
I'm not sure there is a differentiation between a 'lethal' pickup and a 'nonlethal' pickup. E.g. both Combat- and Sport- based Takedown (Forced Change Positions) don't seem to have a side-effect of also dealing damage. (Again, might be missing something.) I'm not sure how pickups differ either.

How would you modify a pickup done with Wrestling Sports / no skill in context of a Sports combat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
After a single grapple? Not at all. spend a few seconds restraining the cat. Also you forgot again that a ST 10 vs ST 5 housecat inflicts -1 DX and -2 ST per 2 CP inflicted due to scaling. A few successful grapples and the cat just loses, esp if you spend CP.
Hmm. Indeed, I did forget about the DX penalty. I guess I'm just assuming that a basic grapple is defined as a sufficiently firm grip on a target, which changed with TG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I did say in a pevious thread that there needs to be a threshold below which the HT roll is irrelevant. I think I suggested BL/2 or so.
Agreed that it's needed, but can't contribute to the decision of the threshold. Sorry.
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
Also, GURPS Discord is a nice place for (faster) Q&A and overall GURPS dicussion.
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
grappling, telekinesis

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.