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Old 09-21-2013, 06:01 PM   #1
Gef
 
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Default Would you recommend Technical Grappling

Howdy, I have a group of GURPS novices, with 3 adventures in a modern psi conspiracy campaign under the belts. That was fun, but the setting was fun for some and not so much for others. So we're changing gears, running a gladiator campaign in a fantasy world, putting the tactical combat system through its paces. In the first few sessions, we'll have lots of one-on-one combat and some team combat, and then I can introduce the broader social and political themes as the PCs gain renown. The previous campaign didn't see much combat.

I've just finished reading Technical Grappling, and I'm impressed with a couple of things, like the fact that it can handle a Scorpion Man (2 pincer-like hands with extra grip strength, 6 legs, and a stinger) and other non-human gladiators. I'm also impressed with the basic concept, what amounts to a damage roll to determine how good a hold you get. That makes sense, but from it proceeds all manner of complexity.

Whereas damage effects take place immediately, Control Points are persistent, running totals, with a one-on-one wrestling match involving multiple running totals for each participant, much calculation and consulting of tables. Is this easier to handle in play than it looks on first read?

For those who've used it, or participated in the playtest (or written the book), would you recommend using it at all, and if so, would you recommend introducing it now, to a group of novices, or starting with the standard mechanics and then changing gears half-way down the road?

Incidentally, for this campaign, the PCs do not start with magic, and cinematic traits are actually a form of magic. They may buy a placeholder for 5 points if they want to Weapon Master later. That said, I have a lot of styles with perks like Extra Option, Special Exercises, and Unusual Training. Party composition include humans, a huge minotaur (mediocre wrestler but TG will make him much better), a bugbear (should be good as a bear hug, even if real bears aren't), a scorpion man as mentioned above, and a sphinx (lion centaur; would be a wemic in DnD), if that affects your recommendation. They are 100pt characters but with talents custom-fitted to their respective gladiator styles yielding skill 14-18, and the big races have impressive strength (21 for sphinx lion body but not for human arm, 19 for minotaur, 17 for bugbear, 19 grip for scorpion man pincers). Most have Boxing and Wresting, plus weapon skills which can grapple as well, and natural weapons in many cases.

Thanks in advance,

GEF

PS: Should I understand that Pincer Grip ST, which is Lifting ST at 70% off, applies to a PAIR of pincers?

PPS: Do I understand correctly that a flail, flexible but too short to entangle, is a lousy weapon for grappling?

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Old 09-21-2013, 07:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: Would you recommend Technical Grappling

It will be more complex then regular grappling but not that much and on par with Martial Arts and remembering all those maneuvers.
Have a chart to show the current grip st handy to save some math time.
It makes grappling a LOT more interesting and to me fun.
I really liked it and a lot of trial combats were done by us playtesters and of course the Author even before we saw the draft.
It gets easier pretty fast but your going to miss some stuff the first combat or two.
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Old 09-22-2013, 08:07 AM   #3
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Would you recommend Technical Grappling

Tech questions first.

Yep, applies to the pair. If you want a dominant claw buy it at 1 point per +2 ST just for one gripper or something.

A flail will qualify as a flexible weapon and get +1 per die CP. so it's a 30% boost. Not bad.
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:57 AM   #4
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Default Re: Would you recommend Technical Grappling

Thank you, Mr. Cole. I hope you understand the gist of the question; no disrespect intended to a work that models a lot more than the basic system, but just whether you'd introduce it straight away to newbies, or switch later on.

A friend who knows GURPS well helped me with a test run today, and this question came up: What happens when you shove a guy who's grappling you? If you roll enough damage to cause knockback, do you force him to release his grip? Do you need more damage to cause knockback, in that case?

In the test, scorpion man versus minotaur, it didn't seem too complex in action, since I had all the limb combos for the scorpion man worked out in advance. My understanding is that by default, you can grab with a matched pair of limbs, or a singleton, as one attack, correct? So grabbing with the arms, then legs, would be two attacks.

The fight went down like this, scorp did a heroic charge, run-around attack, and grabbed, but the minotaur defended, with a retreat. The minotaur then attacked with horns, which the scorp parried and grabbed. This counted as one pincer-hand grabbing. After a couple turns with good defense rolls, the scorp got a two-handed grip on the horns, for 10 control points.

Minotaur with gigantism has ST 19 overall, trained ST 21, and scorpion man has ST 13 generally but 19 for pincer grip, trained ST 23 because he's much more skilled in Wrestling. Since the scorpion man also has Lift ST 16 overall, to account for centauroid physiology, his legs work out the same grip ST as pincer-hands. A few turns convinced the minotaur that he wouldn't break free. However, the minotaur can still retreat, and the scorp can't because of encumbrance.

Scorp decided to be patient, went for a scissor hold with first pair of legs but rolled lousy, 2 and 3 CP on the minotaur legs. Probably, scorp should've forced a position change but he didn't think of it, or just gone for a head lock and throw since he had 10 CP on the head. Minotaur can't effectively use horns or hooves at this point, and I don't know about shoves, so he punches, figuring he's got a decent chance to cause stun. All-Out Attack succeeds, good damage roll for major wound, failed HT roll by scorp. Tactic succeeds against the odds, scorp is stunned, and subsequently gored. Like I said, this probably would've gone to the scorp if he'd thought to get behind his opponent. So, like Refplace predicted, we missed things.

One thing that seems weird is leg ST for multiple legs. I see the scorpion man as scuttling on half a dozen small legs; collectively as strong as the pair of legs on a large human, but I don't know how to model that. The template also buys these legs at a discount for Cannot Kick. I don't see any mention in Technical Grappling that this keeps them from grappling; can they?

Thanks,

GEF

Last edited by Gef; 09-23-2013 at 02:02 AM.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:31 AM   #5
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Default Re: Would you recommend Technical Grappling

I'd recommend it as great system that handles a complex subject in a simple and satisfying to play way.

That said, it is more situation specific rules, and if your easing your table into tactical combat, I'd suggest do that first and then bring in TG. Especially as some of the concepts in tactical combat cross into TG anyway (various attack options etc).

If there is an issue with TG is that it can very quickly involve everything else when it's being run, and while no individual system in GURPS is complicated, there can be a lot of them and they it can be complicated to remember which ones will interact in different ways. But it can also be added in during a campaign with very few issues.

Personally I'd drip feed for a while. Get TG but be prepared for introducing it at the best time for the table and the campaign. Maybe use the setting to restrict what is needed initially. e.g it's a gladiator setting so maybe the first use should just be having your strongest guy have to exhibition belt wrestle with no locks allowed and grips already established, or some other sent of restricted moves. Or a game of 'mercy' with grips on hands only, with only pain joint locks on fingers/hands and forcing position changes allowed, loser is first driven to their knees etc.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-23-2013 at 02:41 AM.
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Old 09-23-2013, 07:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: Would you recommend Technical Grappling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gef View Post
Thank you, Mr. Cole. I hope you understand the gist of the question; no disrespect intended to a work that models a lot more than the basic system, but just whether you'd introduce it straight away to newbies, or switch later on.
It'll be easier to ease into it once the Designer's Notes are published. As it is, the fact that you have to retain and track Control Points might feel a bit more intense (esp for the GM, who has to track CP on all his NPCs). It's not that much more tracking than say, counting bullets and tracking ammo. So if your players can handle that, they can handle CP. The trick is that the impact of those CP (reduced ST and DX) causes a table lookup (for ST) and reduced skills (all DX-based skills).

Quote:

A friend who knows GURPS well helped me with a test run today, and this question came up: What happens when you shove a guy who's grappling you? If you roll enough damage to cause knockback, do you force him to release his grip? Do you need more damage to cause knockback, in that case?
That's a good question. Since slams and shoves didn't use the CP mechanic, we didn't discuss them much.

I'd probably say that you roll damage, and if the raw damage you roll exceeds the CP of the grapple, you shove him off. I'll think on this some more, though.

Quote:
In the test, scorpion man versus minotaur, it didn't seem too complex in action, since I had all the limb combos for the scorpion man worked out in advance. My understanding is that by default, you can grab with a matched pair of limbs, or a singleton, as one attack, correct? So grabbing with the arms, then legs, would be two attacks.
You can grab with one attack on one location with as many limbs as will fit. Just use the rules for combining ST based on the total Basic Lift of all limbs used (that's how we calculated the ST scores in the table in the back of the book). If you want to attack twice, that's either an AoA(Double) or Rapid Strike - I could see getting leave to call it a DWA as well.

You have options here - one grab for combined BL and one attack roll, or several.


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Old 09-23-2013, 04:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: Would you recommend Technical Grappling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gef View Post
Howdy, I have a group of GURPS novices [...] The previous campaign didn't see much combat. [...] That makes sense, but from it proceeds all manner of complexity.
If your group is new to GURPS and hasn't seen much if any GURPS combat, I would actually stick to just the Basic Set combat rules for a bit -- bringing in even Martial Arts stuff gradually, and only when a specific situation comes up (e.g., a player says, "Can I drop-kick him at the end of my charge instead of just slamming him?"). Once everyone is very comfortable with GURPS combat, and you've been able to gradually introduce most of the key concepts from Martial Arts without confusion, then is when I'd ask the group if they're ready for a more in-depth treatment of grappling.
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Old 09-24-2013, 06:12 AM   #8
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Default Re: Would you recommend Technical Grappling

Yeah. My group is new to GURPs. Due to busy schedules they have not been able to read GURPs light, or the combat manouvres cheat sheets.

Essentially, I ask them what they want to do and tell them the rules, but a lot of them just go to attacks (even when I use opponents to encourage them to loo at different tactics such as those wearing armour or relying on reach).

I have long ago made my peace that the full fury of GURPs martial arts and GURPs technical grappling is too much for them to deal with. I will probably need to find an online group to test the full tasty tactical possibilities of GURPs.

But this does go to show that GURPs does not have to be complex and players don't even need to read a page worth of rules in order to play it!

*grumbles about players and thier busy lives*
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Would you recommend Technical Grappling

We had our first session of the gladiator campaign on Monday, just enough time after the intro for everyone to participate in a one-on-one (PC-on-PC), to show their new coach what they can do. For the most part, this was weapons combat, but a few grappling-related issues came up.

We have some characters with high ST and good skill, and some characters with modest ST but great skill. The latter are hard to hit, and we explored ways to bring down their defenses. Most of those work best for another character with great skill, but one choice for a high-ST character should be a grapple, right? Specifically, a grabbing parry.

So consider the case of the minotaur, armed with buckler and flail. My understanding is that armed grappling requires a two-handed grip, requiring him to dump one of his weapons. Technical Grappling seems to proceed from the understanding that you can use a one-handed weapon for grappling at reduced Grip ST, but if that is explicitly stated, then I missed it. If true, it would work great for the minotaur, because he’s huge, with one-handed Grip ST 11. Also if true, I would infer the following:

-A character can grapple with some combination of weapons and limbs, all that fit on the targeted location, using the LOWEST chance to hit (e.g., Wrestling with -2 for legs, Armed Grapple technique for any weapon wielded) and then roll CP for combined Grip ST using the BEST bonus for any weapon in the mix (+2 per die for a rigid weapon with Reach 1+). A matched pair of arms combine their Grip ST as normal, even if wielding different weapons. Am I getting this?

The only team-member strong in Grappling is the scorpion man, and he’s mine, so technically a non-player character. He’s there partially to fill that hole and partly to ask dumb questions about anything the PCs seem to be overlooking. Since his legs Can’t Kick, and I intended them to be individually small, I lowered their base Grip ST to .4 times Lift ST (.8 per matched pair). Consider this bout a test of my ability to apply the Technical Grappling concepts without slowing play; not a commitment to use them henceforth, though I’m leaning that way.

The scorpion man attacked the sphinx (lion-centaur) with a multigrab on her torso: Both pincer-hands, two pair of (weaker) legs, and mandibles. Even with the reduced ST for legs, that gave an impressive combined Grip ST of 35. (By comparison, the sphinx has ST 21 for lower body, ST 11 for human torso.) A higher-than-average roll resulted in 18 CP for active control of the human torso, 9 CP elsewhere.

I calculated the chance to hit at Wrestling -2, because legs were involved. I didn’t know what to do about mandibles, so I just factored the bite ST but didn’t allow bite damage. Well, this was sparring, so he wasn't trying to hurt her, but how should I handle this in a real fight? Can you bit as part of a grab, and if so do you still get bite damage "for free"?

Even with a very impressive CP total, sphinx was only under -4 penalty to DX and ST for her forepaw claws (and maybe should’ve been less, because of her size). Under former rules, it’d’ve been -4 DX, no penalty to ST, so I reckon this is better. (Oh, except that I forgot to scale for ST and give her bonus for size.) Dropping skill for 16 to 12 and damage from 2d+4 to 1d+4 still gave the scorp a good chance to get hurt, and he did get hurt, because I’d used an all-out attack on the grab hoping that it would impair his opponent more severely. Nonetheless he was able to make a faux attack with the stinger for a technical victory, even though he was the one bleeding.

In considering my options, I realized an artifact of the math: If I shifted grip with a pair of limbs to a different hit location, I would get more CP overall by “splitting out” some of the combined Grip ST. My active control of grappled locations would be higher, but my referred control to other locations would be LOWER, because now I’m dividing by 4 instead of 2. That’s supposed to happen, right?

Going back to armed grappling, something I want to make sure I understand: If I get a grapple with a weapon, I can then use that to Force Posture Change. I am actually using the weapon for leverage, but I roll against Wrestling skill to do it (unless I have a perk that lets me default the technique off the weapon skill instead). Correct? And in that case, would it be reasonable (non-cinematic) to take a Skill Adaptation perk to use Armed Grapple with Wrestling skill? In other words, could a wrestler learn to use any random object for leverage, even if he’s no good with its conventional uses?
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: Would you recommend Technical Grappling

One thing on the CP totals:

you hit for 18 CP on the torso against a ST 21 (and let's say DX 12?) critter's torso.

That's -9 to ST and -4.5 to DX, dropped to -4 by rounding. So -4 to DX and -9 to ST. For skill use and ST related to ONLY the limbs or head, the referred control, where it matters, is based on the 9 CP, that is -4 to ST and a (scaled) -2 to DX.

So the sphynx would be operating for most things at ST 12 and DX 8 for most things; where you have a question that ONLY involves limbs, they're afflicted less.
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