Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-18-2013, 03:30 PM   #51
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: So I dropped my sword... how do I pick it up (in combat)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman View Post

So a GURPS "crouch" looks like this (person on left facing camera):
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...tester-009.jpg

While something like this would be called a "kneel" in GURPS, even though there's no knee contact with the ground:
http://static4.depositphotos.com/101...Sporty-guy.jpg
Exactly my point – thanks for the visual references!
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My LiveJournal [Just GURPS News][Just The Company]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 04:35 PM   #52
corwyn
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Default Re: So I dropped my sword... how do I pick it up (in combat)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
The by-the-book rules make it a two-second process:

Second 1: Assume a kneeling posture next to the item. This calls for a Change Posture maneuver. See p. B383. While kneeling, you may try any defense at -2, but since you don't have the weapon yet, you can't use it to parry.

Second 2: Ready the item while standing up. This calls for a Ready maneuver. Per p. B366, no roll is required to pick up a weapon that's just sitting there . . . just say "I pick it up." Per p. B364, you may stand up as the "step" part of your Ready. At this stage you're standing and have full defenses, and can parry with the weapon you just readied.

Only bother with rolls to grab an object when it's a moving or resisting foe, or when you're in close combat and need to roll vs. DX to get your hand in the right place (p. B391). But 95% of the time, you'll just go "I Change Posture next to the sword. I stand up and Ready the sword."
Is this by-the-book using just the basic set, or basic set + martial arts?; because it doesn't jive completely with either as I read them.

BS only: pg 368 says you can step to change from a standing position to a kneeling one, and vice versa, so that would be Step and Ready, kneel and ready weapon (and you would be able to parry with it, though at a penalty for kneeling), then Step and Attack, stand and attack if target is within reach.

Martial Arts: pg 104 says 2 ready actions, one to pick up weapon (confirming the above step and kneel), another to ready it for combat. I also just noticed that there's where the DX/Fast-draw roll at -3 comes from; to ready it for combat as one ready maneuver.
__________________
MiB 7704
Playing: Forgotten Realms 5e
Running: DF RPG
Playing: GURPS Uplift?
corwyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 05:05 PM   #53
Dwarf99
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fayetteville, Arkansas
Default Re: So I dropped my sword... how do I pick it up (in combat)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK View Post
Note that you can also use the Toe Flip technique (Average; DX-5 or appropriate Fast-Draw-5) to flip a weapon up into your hand in a single Ready maneuver. Failure wastes your turn, critical failure kicks the weapon away.
On a tangent: What would I do if I wanted to pull a Jackie Chan and fling it point first at my enemy with my toe?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwarf99 View Post
I'd probably take Restricted Diet: Boiled Children

Last edited by Dwarf99; 09-18-2013 at 05:09 PM.
Dwarf99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 05:32 PM   #54
vierasmarius
 
vierasmarius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oregon
Default Re: So I dropped my sword... how do I pick it up (in combat)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwarf99 View Post
On a tangent: What would I do if I wanted to pull a Jackie Chan and fling it point first at my enemy with my toe?
This is (in grossly simplified terms) a thrown weapon attack. See MA221 for the rules on throwing a sword: DX-4, or Thrown Weapon (Sword) if the GM allows that (likely cinematic) skill. "Throwing" with the feet is an extra complication. I'd use the Using Your Legs rules (MA79): -2 DX, +2 ST. So you'll either be making the attack at DX-6 or Thrown Weapon (Sword) -2. Of course, those rules are specific to grappling, which allows use of the entire leg rather than just the foot. In this case it may be appropriate to increase the DX penalty and/or get rid of the ST bonus.
vierasmarius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 12:13 AM   #55
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: So I dropped my sword... how do I pick it up (in combat)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post

This is pretty much an issue of system granularity. What GURPS calls a "crouch" is in no way low enough to let you touch ground. It brings your hands down to knee level at most, and perhaps not even that much . . . it could conceivably mean a slight bend in the knees and at the waist, with the head kept down, as opposed to a natural, upright walking posture. What GURPS calls "kneeling" is anything lower than that but not so low it's a crawl, including any posture where one or both knees or one or both hands touch the ground, or where one's rear end is so low that it touches one or both heels. You need the latter (kneeling) by definition, because it's the posture that lets you touch ground with a hand. That's what I was getting at here:
Aha fair enough (also I was wrong about crouch costing move points, it's +1/2 moves points per hex, but that wouldn't effect a single step).

A couple of things though

1). Tactical grappling has couching as "a deep crouch bringing the eyes down to armpit level or lower, Couching is two legged, half height position" rather than the slight dip you describe here. I'm guessing TG is picturing a sumo stance. Not that you can't have a range of meaning, but on the whole I this is more what I was thinking when I apply a -2 to target with ranged attack against it and a -2 to attack from it. (given the scale of what -2 to target and -2 to attack tends to mean elsewhere).

2).Maybe I'm a bit of a gibbon but my hands are not that far from knee height anyway, I can slightly dip one shoulder while standing straight and get a hand to that level and lower. And I don't need to have a knee on the floor or have my arse tucked on to my foot in order to touch the floor with one or both hands. So I think I'm definitely in that grey area between kneeling and crouching here.

3). What you describe as a crouch I.e slight bend of the legs and/or back, is quite a lot of default stances for Martial arts (direct experiences of fencing, karate and judo, inferred from lots of others) in general, the sumo one mentioned above is an especially low one for obvious reasons. I don't think they would be qualifying for crouching penalties?

Don't get me wrong I take your point about system granularity, and these postures being a range of positions, but I'm not sure that actually negates my earlier point? I.e I have no problem accepting kneeling as range of things, but then that seems to restrict crouching to a range that doesn't seem to be matched by the rest of the system for crouching?

anyway cheers for the answer

TD

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-19-2013 at 11:14 AM.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 06:23 AM   #56
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: So I dropped my sword... how do I pick it up (in combat)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Aha fair enough (also I was wrong about crouch costing move points, its =1/2 moves points per hex, but that wouldn't effect a single step).

A couple of things though

1). Tactical grappling has couching as "a deep crouch bringing the eyes down to armpit level or lower, Couching is two legged, half height position" rather than the slight dip you describe here. I'm guessing TG is picturing a sumo stance.
I'll need to look at this and some previous drafts. Originally, I had crouching effectively lower your SM by one, and kneeling by two. That would make a three-quarter height posture more accurate. But when crouching, you're at -2 to hit, rather than -1, with ranged weaponry (p. B551), and that makes the lower limit and game effect of a crouch equivalent to half-height.

I'm sure we settled on half-height to match the -2 in the posture table, but in reality, a crouch seems to be "a variable amount of knee bend that impairs mobility and reduces target signature."
__________________
Gaming Ballistic, LLC: Home of Dragon Heresy, Hall of Judgment, and hand-made viking shields.
Now Funding on Kickstarter: Nordlond Sagas: Three New books for the DFRPG
Pre-Order on Backerkit: Four Perilous Journeys: New Adventures plus physical accessories for The Fantasy Trip. FIVE adventures for TFT, written by David Pulver and the team of Christopher R. Rice and J. Edward Tremlett.
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 07:31 AM   #57
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: So I dropped my sword... how do I pick it up (in combat)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I'll need to look at this and some previous drafts. Originally, I had crouching effectively lower your SM by one, and kneeling by two. That would make a three-quarter height posture more accurate. But when crouching, you're at -2 to hit, rather than -1, with ranged weaponry (p. B551), and that makes the lower limit and game effect of a crouch equivalent to half-height.

I'm sure we settled on half-height to match the -2 in the posture table, but in reality, a crouch seems to be "a variable amount of knee bend that impairs mobility and reduces target signature."
And to go back to the OP, I think you don't need to be at half height to reach the ground, as pretty much all the height reduction is going to go on at shoulder level or lower meaning your arms will enjoy all the benefit. The only way to reduce your overall height with out lowering your shoulders is to just duck you neck, now you're limited by the length of your neck if you want to keep your eyes forward, you could roll you entire head down and end up looking directly down, but I don't think we considering this here!

Overall I agree with the points made that Standing, crouching, kneeling sitting, crawling & lying are not distinct and absolute things here, but rather each represents a range of positions that together make up a continuous range from standing to attention down to avoiding lightning bolts in a shallow ditch.

However the description of that range for crouch (and by inference standing) given by Kromm seems to be very narrow., and as you say doesn't match up with the other rules.


Cheers

TD

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-19-2013 at 10:49 AM.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 09:38 AM   #58
CrimsonDawn
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Default Re: So I dropped my sword... how do I pick it up (in combat)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
This is (in grossly simplified terms) a thrown weapon attack. See MA221 for the rules on throwing a sword: DX-4, or Thrown Weapon (Sword) if the GM allows that (likely cinematic) skill. "Throwing" with the feet is an extra complication. I'd use the Using Your Legs rules (MA79): -2 DX, +2 ST. So you'll either be making the attack at DX-6 or Thrown Weapon (Sword) -2. Of course, those rules are specific to grappling, which allows use of the entire leg rather than just the foot. In this case it may be appropriate to increase the DX penalty and/or get rid of the ST bonus.
I'd let the ST bonus remain, but give an additional -6 or so (that's the same as having the maximum level of Bad Grip), and an additional -2 for kicking and not gripping at all, to get a neat total of -10.
CrimsonDawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 10:07 AM   #59
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: So I dropped my sword... how do I pick it up (in combat)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwarf99 View Post
On a tangent: What would I do if I wanted to pull a Jackie Chan and fling it point first at my enemy with my toe?
Isn't this what the proxy kicks rules are for?
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 06:54 PM   #60
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: So I dropped my sword... how do I pick it up (in combat)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I've timed one guy's video wherein he runs three metres, throws a flying kick, falls, rolls, stands, and grapples in about 1.1 seconds.
Realistically, it's possible for a skilled martial artist to do a LOT in just one second. Old movies of SCA heavy fighters at 24 frames per second showed one (notably fast) fighter with sword cocked in one frame and landing a blow in the second frame. More typically, it's not unreasonable to get 2 or 3 strikes in one second, even with one-handed melee weapons.

Conveniently, GURPS 4th ed. handwaves all that into Extra Attack. If you allow a variant of Extra Attack for an extra acrobatic maneuver while making an AoA or moving (counting the forward roll in Kromm's example as a single action), then just treat your acrobatic martial artist as having two Extra Attacks.

Possibly, you could also have a house rule where you allow an increase in Step distance for basic Move or Basic Speed, or just a perk or advantage which allows an increase in Step distance, which would allow a 2-3 meter "step" in one turn without having to take the Move action.
Pursuivant is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
readying, retain weapon

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.