Number of Attacks + Maneuvers Clarification

[Highland_Piper]

Could people correct me if I'm wrong (with book and page numbers if all possible) {}=number of attacks

• Characters get 1 attack {1}
• Humanoids can only purchase Extra Attack 1 (unless supers, etc.) [B53] {2}
• All-Out Attack Double adds only 1 attack and no other All-Out Attacks can be used for the other attacks [B54] {3}
• You may use Rapid Strike to replace one attack with 2 (but with penalties) and you can attack multiple targets [B54, B370] {3}
• Dual Weapon Attack [B417] you have a weapon in each hand allowing 2 attacks with a -4/-8 penalty (reduced by some techniques and skills) all the rest of attacks must be simple attaks {3}

The rules are quite specific in regards to AoA Double and Rapid Strike so there is no way to mix the two together to squeeze out one additional attack. However it says you can use Rapid Strike with an All-Out Attack [B370} which is the opposite of what it says under Extra Attacks and All-Out Attacks [B53]

So one says you must use the same AoA for all 3 attacks, but the other Says you can use Rapid Strike which can use All-Out Attacks. Please could some one clarify this part to me, because some one (meaning one of my players) in interpreting [B370] As saying Rapid-Strike with All-Out Attack Double for +2 attacks. Which in Rapid strike is technically true but not so under Extra Attack. Plus does this mean that those that purchase Extra Attacks are restricted to using Rapid Strike only with a regular attack?

Also could someone with Extra Attacks, Ambidexterity, Dual Weapon Technique and Trained by a master take a weapon in each hand, with dual weapons + either AoA Double or Rapid Strike for a total of 4 attacks?

If I'm missing anything else that could give extra attacks could you let me know. What is the maximum a standard cinematic game could allow?

Cheers

[Darkness]

Here's a Kromm post I've always found helpful.

(Note: This post pre-dates GURPS Martial Arts, so it doesn't cover the optional rule from that book allowing more than two attacks with a Rapid Strike. [See GURPS MA, p.127.])

Originally Posted by Kromm

...

Number of Attacks = 1 + Extra Attack Level +1 if All-Out Attack (Double)

Example 1: A human with no Extra Attack has 1 + 0 + 0 = 1 attack normally, or 1 + 0 + 1 = 2 attacks with All-Out Attack (Double).

Example 2: A dragon with Extra Attack 3 has 1 + 3 + 0 = 4 attacks normally, or 1 + 3 + 1 = 5 attacks with All-Out Attack (Double).

In addition to the above, one can swap one and only one of those attacks for either a Rapid Strike that gives two attacks at -6 (-3 for those with Trained By A Master or Weapon Master) or a Dual-Weapon Attack that gives two attacks at -4 (plus a further -4 for the off hand, unless one has Ambidexterity).

There are plenty of special-case exceptions -- improving the Dual-Weapon Attack and Off-Hand Weapon Training techniques, using Flurry of Blows to trade FP for half the usual Rapid Strike penalty, etc. -- but the above is all one needs to get the gist of what's going on.

One has to be careful with language when discussing Altered Time Rate and Extra Attack, too.

Altered Time Rate gives you an actual extra maneuver. You could, for instance, take All-Out Attack (Double) followed by All-Out Defense . . . or Concentrate followed by Attack . . . or Attack and Attack again . . . or whatever. The above guidelines on number of attacks apply separately to each of your maneuvers.

Extra Attack merely gives you one additional small-a attack or small-f feint if you choose a maneuver that lets you attack or feint in the first place (All-Out Attack, Attack, Feint, Move and Attack, or a triggered Wait). It does not in any way give you an extra maneuver. The "attack" it adds is a strike or grapple, not an Attack maneuver.

[Highland_Piper]

Yeah I was just looking at that since I switched my search from Number of Attacks to Multiple Attacks.

He also says

Originally Posted by Kromm

Joe Ordinary can make three attacks in two ways:

1. Take All-Out Attack (Double) to add one attack to his basic one attack, giving two, and then split one of the two attacks into two with Rapid Strike (RS). Modifiers: -0/-6/-6.

2. Take All-Out Attack (Double) to add one attack to his basic one attack, giving two, and then split one of the two attacks into two with Dual-Weapon Attack (DWA). Modifiers: 0/-4/-8*.

* -4 w. Ambidexterity.

A character with Extra Attack 1 can do the above without All-Out Attack (Double) and still defend himself. Or he can do an AOA (Double) and add one unpenalized attack to either of the above, giving up his defenses to have four attacks.

As for "Why ever do RS if you can do DWA and buy off the penalties with Ambidexterity and the DWA technique?", well, there are lots of reasons. RS is possible even in a realistic campaign; DWA, much less buying off the penalty, often isn't. Even if it's possible, DWA is a different technique for every single weapon skill, while RS works for anything you care to wield. And in a cinematic campaign where you can raise DWA, Weapon Master and Trained By A Master halve RS penalties, making them -3/-3 for everything and better than the -4/-4 for DWA for weapons you haven't studied. But most importantly, RS lets you use a single, really good weapon twice -- DWA isn't much use if you can only find or afford one Sword o' Power or light saber or weapon with Weapon Bond -- and lets you use a shield while you whack somebody twice with a weapon.

I run a high-powered campaign and nobody -- but nobody -- is willing to give up the +2 to all defenses from a DB 2 medium shield merely so that they can strike with a weapon in either hand, the second strike coming from a crappy weapon that's not nearly as damaging or effective as their one, really nice weapon (esp. a weapon with which they have a Weapon Bond).

And of course there's the matter of two-handed weapons. Some people are quite willing to accept -6 when they need to strike twice if it means they can use a big-damage weapon with reach 2 or 3, heavy enough to smash their enemies' weapons into splinters. This effect will become more pronounced with some rules for two-handers in Martial Arts. Come to think of it, that book will give you a couple good reasons to put two hands on a weapon (even a one-handed weapon) and to carry a shield otherwise.

Paired weapons are mostly flash unless you're fortunate enough to have two really nice light weapons, no need for a shield (say, to stop arrows and 14-lb. sledges that would mash your one-handed weapon), and a GM who never deprives you of the specialty weapon you've raised DWA for. I'm not saying that they're useless, just that their utility isn't nearly as "obvious" as all that.

and this

Originally Posted by Ellie the Technomancer

With Extra attack, you have two attacks at full skill. With one of them you can do an All-Out-Attack, with the other a Rapid Strike.

When you buy Extra Attack, you do not simply buy one swing with your weapon, you buy an additional Attack maneuver. So anything you can do during a normal attack maneuver, you can do with your Extra Attack. The only exception is you can't replace more than one attacks with a combination of Rapid Strike and Dual Weapon Attack. All-out-attacking with one and rapid striking or dual weapon attacking with the other is fine, since you give up your defenses in return.

The part that made it difficult for me was not understanding that the Extra Attack allows another Maneuver to be used. With that in mind it is all cleared up.

So I guess they can do 4 attacks if they don't want to defend.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by Highland_Piper

The part that made it difficult for me was not understanding that the Extra Attack allows another Maneuver to be used. With that in mind it is all cleared up.

So I guess they can do 4 attacks if they don't want to defend.

Unfortunately, this is the part that is wrong. The Kromm quote posted by Darkness is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

[Highland_Piper]

So are you saying the second Kromm post is not right and it is in fact only a maximum of 3 attacks? And people wonder why we get so confused.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

Unfortunately, this is the part that is wrong. The Kromm quote posted by Darkness is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Originally Posted by Highland_Piper

So are you saying the second Kromm post is not right and it is in fact only a maximum of 3 attacks? And people wonder why we get so confused.

No he's saying that the Extra Attack providing an extra maneuver is wrong. The only thing that grants an extra maneuver is Altered Time Rate [well Compartmentalized Mind proves a limited maneuver]

Extra Attack only provide an additional attack action on a maneuver that already proved an attack actions.

But yes someone with one level of extra attack could get 4 attacks by taking the All Out Attack (Double) Maneuver and swapping one of their 3 attack actions for either a Rapid Strike or a Dual Weapon Attack action.

[Highland_Piper]

Cheers roguebfl

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

Unfortunately, this is the part that is wrong. The Kromm quote posted by Darkness is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Except that it is pre Martial Arts. In a cinematic game with Trained by a Master, you are allowed to make as many strikes in a Rapid Strike action as long as your effective skill is at least 12 (I think). And the penalty for each strike is -3 for each strike over the 1st. So a master with a 21 skill can take four strikes each at a -9.

And I play a house rule that if you are also a Weapon Master in the specific weapon used, this lowers the penalty to -1 (just like Flurry of Blows does, but without the FP cost).

And this is without using AoA or Extra Attack, which would give her one additional attack.

[Flyndaran]

Martial Arts is optional and not errata for the Basic. No matter how much I adore it.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Martial Arts is optional and not errata for the Basic. No matter how much I adore it.

Such is indeed true. I keep forgetting it because it is always in the playlist for my games. So the character in question would have to merely rely on her extra attack, her altered time rate, and her insanely high skill in the martial arts to pummel opponents at a mere six attacks per turn.

1. Two standard attack maneuvers via ATR.
2. Rapid blows (2) for each attack option
3. Plus one more for the extra attack

Of course, she does have to slow down eventually because her ATR costs FP (yes, this is a specific limitation on her ATR, not on ATR in general).

That is, if Doc Wynn wasn't built with Martial Arts. :)