[MA] Grappling, AOA (Double), and Critical Misses

[Landwalker]

Scenario:

Allen has Barry grappled (but Barry does not have Allen grappled in return). Allen throws an All-Out Attack (Double) with two Knee Strikes. Barry rolls a critical success on his dodge against the first knee strike, and gets a result of 14 on the Unarmed Critical Miss Table ("You stumble. On an attack, you advance one yard past your opponent and end your turn facing away from him; he is now behind you!")

What happens?

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The way I see it, there are a few issues here:

1) Does Allen lose his grapple on Barry?

2) What happens to Allen's second attack? Is it "forfeited" due to the critical miss? Is it "forfeited" due to this particular result ("... and you end your turn...")? Or does he still have the opportunity to make the second half of his AoA (Double)?

3) If Allen still gets to finish his AoA Double, can he change facing after he stumbles past Barry? Is he limited to a knee strike (since he already declared it), or can he choose something else?

4) Assuming Allen can't take the second part of his AoA (Double) and ends up behind Barry, facing away from Barry, is Barry also considered to be facing away from Allen (or otherwise facing whatever direction he was facing when the attack was originally made)?

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

My opinion? Choose the worst options for Allen. I'd have him lose the grapple, and effectively forfeit the second attack (he can't turn, he used AOA). Barry is still facing wherever he was facing. He can change facing normally on his turn.

But hey, I'm pretty mean about critical failures.

[roguebfl]

Personally I wouldn't force Allen to stick with his intended second attack, but instead use Back Kick (MA 67) or Elbow Strike (MA 71) to hit the opponent now behind him with his second attack.

[DouglasCole]

I'd go with "yes, the step is mandatory and it makes you lose your grapple." There's a box in Technical Grappling called something like "Impossible Positions" that basically says 'if you can't imagine a grapple existing from a given position, you gotta let go.'

So yep, he loses his grapple and goes a step beyond.

I would, however, say that Allen might substitute a back kick for the knee strike, as rogue suggests; the "I throw double knees!" is only really key if you're doing a Combination or something that truly forces you to declare everything in advance. That being said, that's a LOT of mental wherewithal to stay quite that focused in a single second. GURPS characters tend to be that way, but "I do this double move, OH CRAP, I now readjust from a critical screw-up and throw a back kick instead!" is asking a bit much.

Ultimately, GM call. If you're usually pretty harsh with crits, then so sorry, you lose your attack, and are now back-to-back with your foe with no defenses. If not, then back kick away.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I'd go with "yes, the step is mandatory and it makes you lose your grapple." There's a box in Technical Grappling called something like "Impossible Positions" that basically says 'if you can't imagine a grapple existing from a given position, you gotta let go.'

So yep, he loses his grapple and goes a step beyond.

Actually I would apply the Rules for forcing dragging someone grappled to drag the person with you. (Drag or carry your victim B371) which means you you have twice his ST you can drag him with you on your step if you don't have him pinned, if pinned then you jut need the strength enough to move his weight, only requiring the let go if neither is true.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Actually I would apply the Rules for forcing dragging someone grappled to drag the person with you. (Drag or carry your victim B371) which means you you have twice his ST you can drag him with you on your step if you don't have him pinned, if pinned then you jut need the strength enough to move his weight, only requiring the let go if neither is true.

I see why you'd do this, but you just critical failed your roll. That Bad Stuff trumps anything you want to do, I'd say. You stumble forward a hex, you lose your grapple, and there you go.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I see why you'd do this, but you just critical failed your roll. That Bad Stuff trumps anything you want to do, I'd say. You stumble forward a hex, you lose your grapple, and there you go.

Bad stuff only trumps when the bad stuff actual says you do it, and nothing in the bad stuff says you let go. just that they move one hex forward. And grapples do let you man handle you foe with you. it's also the common way that things end in a ground fight, like say a failed DX roll after the kick you fall over, but not letting go of your grapple you drag them down with you. Bad stuff is you fall over, side effect you bring them with you.

Now it's likely he not pinned nor double the target's ST so letting go is more likely than dragged.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I see why you'd do this, but you just critical failed your roll.

That's how I feel. YOU critically failed, not the guy you grappled. Why does he have to get forced back because you screwed up? You're now behind him, it says, and it doesn't say "unless you were grappling him" or any other easy out like that. It says, pretty clearly, what happens:

"On an attack, you advance one yard past your opponent and end up facing away from him" - no exceptions for grappling, difficulty of evading, or anything.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

That's how I feel. YOU critically failed, not the guy you grappled. Why does he have to get forced back because you screwed up? You're now behind him, it says, and it doesn't say "unless you were grappling him" or any other easy out like that. It says, pretty clearly, what happens:

"On an attack, you advance one yard past your opponent and end up facing away from him" - no exceptions for grappling, difficulty of evading, or anything.

Actully Allen didn't critical fail, his kick was good, Barry Critialled his dodge cause bad thing for Allen

And yes he end up being yard past where he wanted to be didn't say other wise... ides does NEED an an exception for grappling, because it isn't an exception it the normal grappling rules, if you move while grappling someone you potential have the ability to make them move with you.

if anything the exception need is to automatically break the grapple, as it not a listed effect on the critical and the normal grappling rules allows for the possibly of being dragged, hence not an "Impossible Positions" exception.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Actully Allen didn't critical fail, his kick was good, Barry Critialled his dodge cause bad thing for Allen

If you're sent to the critical miss table, you've been sent to the critical miss table. Either way, you suffer the bad stuff.

Originally Posted by roguebfl

And yes he end up being yard past where he wanted to be didn't say other wise... ides does NEED an an exception for grappling, because it isn't an exception it the normal grappling rules, if you move while grappling someone you potential have the ability to make them move with you.

if anything the exception need is to automatically break the grapple, as it not a listed effect on the critical and the normal grappling rules allows for the possibly of being dragged, hence not an "Impossible Positions" exception.

See, I totally disagree. It doesn't need an exception because it's not an exception. You get that result, you suffer the effects, and because you're in an impossible position to still be holding on . . . you aren't.

To me, it's really that simple. Follow the rules to get to the table roll, roll on the table, resolve the results, and then fit your current status around what it says happened. Applying the rules for shoving people around is a mis-application because it's not what's happening here. He did something so awesome it made you do something disastrous, so you just take it and move on. No need for extra rules or, IMO, unnecessary weakening of the table entry.

Very occasionally, I have people argue "this couldn't happen" - and if I agree, I go with the most common table entry, which is 9-11. You fall down. That doesn't go to the Takedown rules, either, you just fall down. For armed, it's "you drop your weapon."