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Old 06-24-2013, 06:20 AM   #71
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I'd have thought that was more to do with the fact that its probably not going to come up very often in normal combat operations, rather than its difficulty. Not that I'm saying sentry removal is easy though. Far from it, it seems to be based on several things going right, and any one of them going wrong will screw it all up. A scenario most combat training trys to avoid, preferring redundancy in tactics.
Sentry removal is still taught, but the targets are, in GURPS terms, the Vitals and the Neck Vein/Arteries. Attacking the Spine in the Neck is considered to require such millimeter precision, exact angle and considerable power that it's impractical to expect even picked soldiers to be able to carry it out under combat conditions.
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Old 06-24-2013, 07:37 AM   #72
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Sentry removal is still taught, but the targets are, in GURPS terms, the Vitals and the Neck Vein/Arteries. Attacking the Spine in the Neck is considered to require such millimeter precision, exact angle and considerable power that it's impractical to expect even picked soldiers to be able to carry it out under combat conditions.
Who's it taught to though?

I'm guessing it's not something the average solider is going to come up against very often.

I'd have thought it would pretty much be kept to special forces etc.

I can see the back of neck is going to be tough, especially the pithing attack between the capitals and the skull, as I'd have thought grapples to the head/face from behind will tend to pull the head back thus reducing the angle further (the opposite for attacks to the front of the neck). Luckily for my players a level of detail that GURPS doesn't go into!
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Old 06-24-2013, 08:49 AM   #73
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Who's it taught to though?

I'm guessing it's not something the average solider is going to come up against very often.

I'd have thought it would pretty much be kept to special forces etc.
The only ones likely to actually develop any competence at it are, as you say, special forces of some kind. But it's a part of the basic field manual for the US Army and is, if I remember correctly, at least demonstrated as part of hand-to-hand training for front-line combat MOSes.

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I can see the back of neck is going to be tough, especially the pithing attack between the capitals and the skull, as I'd have thought grapples to the head/face from behind will tend to pull the head back thus reducing the angle further (the opposite for attacks to the front of the neck). Luckily for my players a level of detail that GURPS doesn't go into!
There's also the problem of the vertabrae. If the goal is to sever blood vessels, close is actually good enough, because you can cut a fairly wide gash with a sharp knife and you don't actually have to know precisely where in that area the arteries are. By contrast, missing by a millimeter to either side means a non-disabling hit if you're trying for the spine.

In GURPS terms, DR 3 is pretty harsh when the damage per attack ranges from 1d-2 to 1d+2, depending on the level of awesomeness.
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:27 AM   #74
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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There's also the problem of the vertabrae. If the goal is to sever blood vessels, close is actually good enough, because you can cut a fairly wide gash with a sharp knife and you don't actually have to know precisely where in that area the arteries are. By contrast, missing by a millimeter to either side means a non-disabling hit if you're trying for the spine.

In GURPS terms, DR 3 is pretty harsh when the damage per attack ranges from 1d-2 to 1d+2, depending on the level of awesomeness.
I was thinking more of going through the foramen magnum and into the basal brain/stem (spine can be in 100% perfect working order but of its connected to mash potato it won't matter).

You could go through the base of skull its self, but I would guess that the kind of knives we tend to have now are not best suited for this (I'm thinking it would better for older style knives with a squared cross-section and pick point, but then the ones I'm thinking of weren't used in this way).

But I'm guessing the angles for all this are going to be tough and the spine will get in the way. Especially if your pulling the head back when you will be moving you target area away from your strike and obscuring if further.

I guess I'm just thinking about this because as has been said sawing away at the neck will take a certain amount of time to kill, it's messy and the target will struggle.

I was thinking about grappling the neck and stabbing through the eye, but again that's going to be a small moving target. Another advantage of going of the neck is that it its not as mobile as the head on top of it.

Or under/between the the jaw and neck though the pallet, but there's a lot of stuff in the way and you could easily miss the brain stem etc.

I guess barring extremely precise strikes to the brain it "will take a certain amount of time to kill, it's messy and the target will struggle" is par for the course!

And ultimately your relying on combination of variable of shock and blood loss rather than guaranteed instant incapacity to do the job.
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:46 PM   #75
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

With ST 24 and Judo 22 I find a quick neck grapple and neck snap does a fine job on sentries.

As for silencers, my query would be - is it the danger of hearing the shot from the place being fired from that they muffle, or do they make the actual bullet travel more quietly. Is a bullet hitting a guard's skull a quiet thing or a noisy one? Films depict it in different ways, and I've never tried it in real life...
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:21 PM   #76
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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As for silencers, my query would be - is it the danger of hearing the shot from the place being fired from that they muffle, or do they make the actual bullet travel more quietly. Is a bullet hitting a guard's skull a quiet thing or a noisy one? Films depict it in different ways, and I've never tried it in real life...
Silencers don't modify the bullet, so they won't modify the sound of its flight or impact. Aside from potentially slowing it down slightly.
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:22 PM   #77
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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With ST 24 and Judo 22 I find a quick neck grapple and neck snap does a fine job on sentries.
With skill of 22 you can reliably take out the sentry from further away than the hearing distance.
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Old 12-27-2016, 03:15 PM   #78
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Something relevant to this thread: A Forgotten Weapons video on the Welrod MkIIA in .32ACP, which talks about how amazingly quiet it, is, but also quotes a measured 34dB reduction over a conventional pistol. Which matches up pretty well with High-Tech.
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Old 12-28-2016, 01:03 AM   #79
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Something relevant to this thread: A Forgotten Weapons video on the Welrod MkIIA in .32ACP, which talks about how amazingly quiet it, is, but also quotes a measured 34dB reduction over a conventional pistol. Which matches up pretty well with High-Tech.
Yeah going back to the original topic with most sensory perception rolls in GURPS the trick is I think to place the roll in a realistic environmental context.
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Old 01-04-2017, 05:24 AM   #80
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Something relevant to this thread: A Forgotten Weapons video on the Welrod MkIIA in .32ACP, which talks about how amazingly quiet it, is, but also quotes a measured 34dB reduction over a conventional pistol. Which matches up pretty well with High-Tech.
Puts it on par with a power saw, rock concert, or jackhammer. The main thing a suppressor does is change the noise from a "BANG!" to more of a "Whump!" or "Thud!". This makes it sound less like a gunshot, and more like someone dropped a Riverside Unabridged Shakespeare on a table. (Hence the negative for being unfamiliar with how suppressed weapons sound.)
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