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Old 06-20-2013, 03:09 PM   #41
apoc527
 
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Jamming a knife into the brain from behind, then wiggling it around in the hole until you puree enough of the brain to actually eliminate function, is non-trivial and takes more than a second, and represents probably around HT*4 damage. In general, if the brain doesn't splatter, you might not have hit what you need to hit.
I admit that it's POSSIBLE to not go unconscious from grievous head trauma (everyone has seen stories of guys with nails or rebar through their heads who are walking around fine), but I think you are overstating your case substantially. People black out with barely a sound from minor crushing hits to the skull. Shoving a "large knife" into your head from below the neck is going to very likely cause you to black out as well. And if you don't like that, you can always go with the blackjack...(assuming no helmet, obviously).
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Old 06-20-2013, 03:43 PM   #42
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by apoc527 View Post
People black out with barely a sound from minor crushing hits to the skull.
Those 'minor crushing hits to the skull' are usually significant speed collisions with solid objects, which would be lethal if the same collision had involved a pointed object. Collisions routinely involve extremely high energies relative to the resulting injuries.
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Old 06-20-2013, 06:56 PM   #43
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Jamming a knife into the brain from behind, then wiggling it around in the hole until you puree enough of the brain to actually eliminate function, is non-trivial and takes more than a second, and represents probably around HT*4 damage. In general, if the brain doesn't splatter, you might not have hit what you need to hit.
Time to unify this with the [SPINE] thread and note that severing the spinal column at the 1st or 2nd cervical vertebra will prevent....well pretty much everything but definitely breathing and voluntary movements of all kinds.

Attacking the brain directly above the point where it fuses with the spine should have much the same effect. The hindbrain at that location is not part of the brain you can do without.

Putting your large knife through the skull at the temple might only blind and lobotomize your target but there are parts of the brain that really are vital..
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:14 PM   #44
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Except that there's no definition of 'while he is dying'. It does not exist. There is absolutely nothing in the system that says how long I have to wait.
Right. It's down to the GM's judgment.

Just like there's nothing in the system that says characters have bodily functions that get rid of the excess matter they consume, but a GM might still call for HT rolls with increasing penalties for a character who tried to stand absolutely still somewhere for hours on end shortly after drinking lots of fluids.

As with other matters not detailed in the rulebooks, but potentially vital for some situation, the GM should absolutely adjudicate this based on the situation and allow the right skills to be used to minimise any problems. So, just like Hiking, Soldier or Survival might be of use to avoid drinking too much before a PC has to play a statue for a few hours (and avoid looking like a cupid in a fountain), Wrestling or Judo plays a role in reducing the noise someone makes as he dies.

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I'm not proposing skipping the grappling. Obviously, that won't work. I'm saying that switching from one hand grappling and one hand stabbing to two hands grappling is not productive.
Holding a dying person who weights something close to your own weight is really hard with one arm. Unless the character doing sentry removal has BL of 80 or more, it's not really likely he'll be able to hold up the sentry if he collapses with only one arm.

And if you drop the sentry, his rifle might discharge and even if it doesn't, he'll certainly make a noise as he lands. And, worst case scenario, he wasn't dead as he dropped, he was stunned or faking.

Real world sentry removal is predicated on the soldier not having a magical sense about the health of the sentry. If you tell your players exactly what their attacks accomplished, as opposed to what their characters perceive about the effects of their attacks, a lot of the difficulty disappears.

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I'm also not saying this is true in reality. But if it is true in GURPS but not reality, well, that's notable.
If you want GURPS to approach reality, you'll have to use every realistic optional rule. Including the ones in Tactical Shooting about only revealing those details of a combat situation that the characters can perceive, as per Per or Per-based skill rolls.

The player doesn't know if his first thrust killed the sentry, stunned him or just nicked him. He doesn't know if the sentry is mentally stunned, physically stunned from wounds or unconscious and starting to fall. A sudden drop might be unconciousness, it might be a clever way to get out of a one-handed grapple by faking weakness and using gravity.

The PC pretty much has to assume that until he's had time to make thoroughly sure, the sentry is still dangerous and still capable of shouting or firing his weapon. That means he can't afford to let him slip from a grapple which controls his Face (mouth which can scream) while simultaneously preventing him from firing a weapon, falling down or dropping anything heavy so that it clatters around. And it's just not practical to do all of the above with one hand.

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No thanks to GURPS bleeding...
Which is why I use house-rules in my games that are based on 3e rules for more severe arterial bleeding. But even without them, note that explaining the eventual collapse of a wounded character from a failed HT check as succumbing to blood loss is sensible and fits with the rules.

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It doesn't work in GURPS when you've ruled that failing an HT check to retain consciousness doesn't mean you can't still actively cause trouble. Why does that ruling cease to apply here? In what way does holding a guy for 30 seconds get to force actual unconsciousness rather than that watered-down 'unconsciousness' that doesn't actually mean they have to stop doing things?
No rule in GURPS states that upon failing a death check or unconsciousness check, a character succumbs without making a sound. In order to prevent a dying scream, the PC has to be holding the sentry in a grapple or lock which prevents him from making much noise, firing a weapon or falling down until he has definitely lost consciousness. And then he can lay him down gently.

If you just let him go as soon as you think he's lost consciousness, you might find that he was just stunned and the first warning you get might be him shouting or firing.

As for why it helps to hold him for that long? Well, since a dying scream is one of those GM's judgment things that still affect gameplay, but don't have explicit rules, you'll have to hope that waiting until the sentry was definitely dead means he won't make one.

He may have tried at whatever second he actually died (or lost consciousness), but at that point, you were holding him in a grapple which prevented the sound from being as loud as it otherwise would have been.
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:24 PM   #45
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Wait, are you saying it's not realistically possible to jam a knife into a brain from behind, perhaps after grappling the head to stabilize your target? Perhaps that's a much harder thing to do than it sounds, but regardless, if it could be done, "instant unconsciousness, no sound" (assuming you catch them as they fall) is not unrealistic at all IMO.
Assuming very high ST, enough Will or other traits to be able to retain very fine motor control under stressful conditions and above average precision and hand-eye coordination, there is a possible way to do that, yes. Needless to say, you also need training with a knife, a lot more than most soldiers have.

Problem is that it's usually either a perfect kill or the point of the knife slides off a vertabrae. In which case you have an annoyed and loud sentry.

In GURPS terms, you'd use a Reversed Grip knife to strike for the Spine in the Neck.

Personally, I'd allow targeting a specific point on the Spine, the one corresponding to the target area of a matador, at the -11 Kromm wants to use for targeting the Spine in the neck in general. That would allow the DR 3 to become DR 1 if you're using an Impaling weapon, which makes this practical for someone skilled enough. Obviously only works from behind.

You can also strike upwards behind the ear and into the brain. Or at the base of the skull, angling upwards.

I'd call both equally difficult as an Eye hit, but only possible from behind. Behind the ear would have the same effects as an Eye hit, minus blinding, i.e. Skull without DR. Base of the skull might give the DR 3 of the Spine, which you could halve by taking an extra -2 to hit.

None of those, however, are used by real soldiers in real life. Because they require too much skill and too much ST to be reliably useful. Even a ST 14 soldier with Knife-15 is not going to be able to pull them off reliably.

You need something closer to ST 17 and Knife-20. And that's something real soldiers generally don't have. Rambo, though...
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:30 AM   #46
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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Right. It's down to the GM's judgment.

Just like there's nothing in the system that says characters have bodily functions that get rid of the excess matter they consume, but a GM might still call for HT rolls with increasing penalties for a character who tried to stand absolutely still somewhere for hours on end shortly after drinking lots of fluids.

As with other matters not detailed in the rulebooks, but potentially vital for some situation, the GM should absolutely adjudicate this based on the situation and allow the right skills to be used to minimise any problems. So, just like Hiking, Soldier or Survival might be of use to avoid drinking too much before a PC has to play a statue for a few hours (and avoid looking like a cupid in a fountain), Wrestling or Judo plays a role in reducing the noise someone makes as he dies.
I'm not okay with the GM's judgement defining an arbitrary duration after losing consciousness in which a character is not actually unconscious.

Houserule maybe, but you seem to prefer to define the duration as exactly long enough to make not doing things the way you prefer into a disaster.
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Holding a dying person who weights something close to your own weight is really hard with one arm. Unless the character doing sentry removal has BL of 80 or more, it's not really likely he'll be able to hold up the sentry if he collapses with only one arm.

And if you drop the sentry, his rifle might discharge and even if it doesn't, he'll certainly make a noise as he lands. And, worst case scenario, he wasn't dead as he dropped, he was stunned or faking.
If you need BL 80 to do it with one arm, you need BL 40 to do it with two, don't you? Sentry removal is an ST 15 minimum activity? Also, you should evidently freely allow anyone to automatically escape most grapples by falling over.

Or we could suppose that holding someone uprght when they're collapsing doesn't actually require enough ST to pick them up in two seconds...
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Real world sentry removal is predicated on the soldier not having a magical sense about the health of the sentry. If you tell your players exactly what their attacks accomplished, as opposed to what their characters perceive about the effects of their attacks, a lot of the difficulty disappears.


If you want GURPS to approach reality, you'll have to use every realistic optional rule. Including the ones in Tactical Shooting about only revealing those details of a combat situation that the characters can perceive, as per Per or Per-based skill rolls.

The player doesn't know if his first thrust killed the sentry, stunned him or just nicked him. He doesn't know if the sentry is mentally stunned, physically stunned from wounds or unconscious and starting to fall. A sudden drop might be unconciousness, it might be a clever way to get out of a one-handed grapple by faking weakness and using gravity.
I have no idea why you think this is relevant. My strategy avoids more uncertainty...if you only make the first thrust and then hold on, as you say, you don't know how much damage you've done, and maybe it's not enough. If you keep on stabbing, you don't know how much damage you've done but it's rapidly increasing to the point where sufficiency is assured.

One stab, maybe the guy's not even seriously injured. Stab a dozen or so times and the guy is pretty definitely below zero HP. Don't trust that either, you can always keep stabbing.
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The PC pretty much has to assume that until he's had time to make thoroughly sure, the sentry is still dangerous and still capable of shouting or firing his weapon. That means he can't afford to let him slip from a grapple which controls his Face (mouth which can scream) while simultaneously preventing him from firing a weapon, falling down or dropping anything heavy so that it clatters around. And it's just not practical to do all of the above with one hand.
In that case, you can't pull it off at all, can you? In the first second, you certainly need to assume the sentry is dangerous, but you can't use both hands to grapple unless you're planning to rip out his throat with your teeth.
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
No rule in GURPS states that upon failing a death check or unconsciousness check, a character succumbs without making a sound. In order to prevent a dying scream, the PC has to be holding the sentry in a grapple or lock which prevents him from making much noise, firing a weapon or falling down until he has definitely lost consciousness. And then he can lay him down gently.

If you just let him go as soon as you think he's lost consciousness, you might find that he was just stunned and the first warning you get might be him shouting or firing.
I'm not sure how, at this point, you could not get that I'm not proposing to drop the sentry before making sure, or without restraining them at all.
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As for why it helps to hold him for that long? Well, since a dying scream is one of those GM's judgment things that still affect gameplay, but don't have explicit rules, you'll have to hope that waiting until the sentry was definitely dead means he won't make one.

He may have tried at whatever second he actually died (or lost consciousness), but at that point, you were holding him in a grapple which prevented the sound from being as loud as it otherwise would have been.
You can't wait until the sentry is definitely dead without the arterial bleeding houserule, because the sentry is very unlikely to die while you wait.
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:41 AM   #47
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

I'm starting to get the feeling that Choke Hold + Throw From Lock is the right way to go for sentry removal. Prevents screams, adds a stun, does huge damage, maintains grapple. (Technically it's not called From Lock, but the choke hold still counts as a grapple, so you can still throw-and-keep-choking-on-the-ground.)
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:48 AM   #48
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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I'm starting to get the feeling that Choke Hold + Throw From Lock is the right way to go for sentry removal. Prevents screams, adds a stun, does huge damage, maintains grapple. (Technically it's not called From Lock, but the choke hold still counts as a grapple, so you can still throw-and-keep-choking-on-the-ground.)
I suspect throwing a sentry to the ground is exactly the sort of noise you don't want to be making.
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:54 AM   #49
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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I suspect throwing a sentry to the ground is exactly the sort of noise you don't want to be making.
I doubt that a single thud is louder than all sorts of things a person can do while struggling anyway (including shooting a rifle in the air!). At least the throw-and-stun results in dropping one's weapon.

Even so . . . still Choke Hold seems good. In many ways it has the same effects as making a single stab followed by holding on with two arms and hoping that it was good enough to kill in 30 seconds. But with one Technique.
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:24 AM   #50
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

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I'm not okay with the GM's judgement defining an arbitrary duration after losing consciousness in which a character is not actually unconscious.
How about basing it off MoF? 5 or more means instant unconsciousness, 3-4 means fading consciousness (a chance to make a noise for a few seconds), 1-2 means mere incapacitation (you don't fall unconscious until you fail again). For death, 5 or more means instant death (no sound beyond falling), 3-4 means a noisy death (unless restrained from making noise), 1-2 is a Mortal Wound, as normal.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
If you need BL 80 to do it with one arm, you need BL 40 to do it with two, don't you? Sentry removal is an ST 15 minimum activity? Also, you should evidently freely allow anyone to automatically escape most grapples by falling over.
80/40 is probably a bit excessive for simply holding up a collapsing body, but properly (i.e. leaving no ability to make noise) restraining someone with only one arm should probably require a good deal more than double the BL necessary to do it with two, simply because two arms makes it more than twice as easy to restrain someone.

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In that case, you can't pull it off at all, can you? In the first second, you certainly need to assume the sentry is dangerous, but you can't use both hands to grapple unless you're planning to rip out his throat with your teeth.
In the first second, the sentry is probably going to be mentally stunned if you managed to sneak up on him, but beyond that you have no guarantee. If he isn't mentally stunned (say, thanks to him being alerted to your presence and having Combat Reflexes), you still have a better chance of keeping him restrained one-armed for one second than you do for keeping him restrained one-armed for the amount of time it takes to stab him to death. Personally, I'd also rule that dedicating an entire round to restraining someone (as opposed to restraining someone while making an Attack action) should probably give a bonus to doing so, regardless of the number of arms involved.
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