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Old 06-12-2013, 04:48 AM   #1
joppeknol
 
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Default off hand weapon training perk and technique

In a PbP, I had a player who took broadsword to 13, then put 5 points in dual-weapon training and 1 point in off-hand weapon training perk. For 6 cp he now can fight with 2 swords and effectively has a double attack.

He was kind enough to remove it after I told him that I thought it would make his character overpowered compared to the others, but it still bugs me. Was this legal? Why wouldn't everyone do this? (Except for when it doesn't fit the character concept.).

My best argument rulewise would be that I don't use the martial arts in my campaign. However, what I understand from its description is that it replaces the off-hand weapon training from the basic set because the latter was underpowered. If it replaces the technique, isn't the technique a kind of 'bug' in the basic set, or does it still have a function?
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Old 06-12-2013, 05:01 AM   #2
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Default Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by joppeknol View Post
In a PbP, I had a player who took broadsword to 13, then put 5 points in dual-weapon training and 1 point in off-hand weapon training perk. For 6 cp he now can fight with 2 swords and effectively has a double attack.

He was kind enough to remove it after I told him that I thought it would make his character overpowered compared to the others, but it still bugs me. Was this legal? Why wouldn't everyone do this? (Except for when it doesn't fit the character concept.).
Depends. DWA is specifically noted as being cinematic, except for Guns (Pistol), so if you're in a cinematic game it's probably okay, and if you're not it's probably not.
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:02 AM   #3
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Default Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique

OHWT as a Technique is extremely overpriced when compared to Ambidexterity.

Also, in addition to DWA being cinematic, it effectively doubles the cost of all weapon upgrades.
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:15 AM   #4
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Default Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
OHWT as a Technique is extremely overpriced when compared to Ambidexterity.
This is true, but the OP indicated that the player was taking the Perk, not the technique.

Plus, even the cinematic fighters who use two weapons don't usually use two full-sized broadswords in the off hand; the off hand or both hands usually have a lighter weapon (broadsword and shortsword, rapier and main-gauche, paired sais, paired shortswords, etc.), not two large weapons.
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:20 AM   #5
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Default Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique

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Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
This is true, but the OP indicated that the player was taking the Perk, not the technique.
Yes, but I'm pointing out why the Perk makes sense in terms of pricing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
Plus, even the cinematic fighters who use two weapons don't usually use two full-sized broadswords in the off hand; the off hand or both hands usually have a lighter weapon (broadsword and shortsword, rapier and main-gauche, paired sais, paired shortswords, etc.), not two large weapons.
Exactly. Dual-weapon deny themselves the opportunity to afford two cool big weapons. Or a shield, which is no laughing matter!
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Old 06-12-2013, 07:05 AM   #6
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Default Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by joppeknol View Post
In a PbP, I had a player who took broadsword to 13, then put 5 points in dual-weapon training and 1 point in off-hand weapon training perk. For 6 cp he now can fight with 2 swords and effectively has a double attack.

He was kind enough to remove it after I told him that I thought it would make his character overpowered compared to the others, but it still bugs me.
He is hardly over-powered.

Basic Set, p. 417 Dual Weapon Attack
You must use All-out-Attack (Double) which means no active defense. If you use Attack maneuver you gain -4 penalty on primary hand and -8 on off hand attack. (In case of your player his skill drops from Broadsword -13 to Broadsword-9 and Broadsword-5.)

Dual-Weapon Training cost 5 points and Off-hand Training costs 5 points. Both DWT and OHWT are bought per skill. Not really cheap.

If this is a problem you could let him have a less effective skills. DWT and OHWT only buys half of penalties. So you have -2 on primary weapon and -4 with off-hand weapon. He will still be able to use two weapons but at a price. He is sacrificing something to get the benefits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joppeknol View Post
Why wouldn't everyone do this? (Except for when it doesn't fit the character concept.)
Using two weapons is nice but you could spend those CP in different, more useful ways.

For example: You could increase your shield skill by 2.
Shield gives you DB on all active defense rolls while a weapon allows you only parry and very few weapons grant bonus on parry.
Shield also gives you DB against muscle-powered ranged attacks.
Shield grants cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joppeknol View Post
However, what I understand from its description is that it replaces the off-hand weapon training from the basic set because the latter was underpowered. If it replaces the technique, isn't the technique a kind of 'bug' in the basic set, or does it still have a function?
Problem begins when you want to have multiple ways to implement your dual-weapon style. As I said DWT and OHWT must be bought per skill. You want Rapier/Knife pay up to 10 points. Rapier/Rapier another 10 points. Rapier/Buckler 10 points. This is 15 CP in just OHWT or you could buy Ambidexterity for 5 CP.

Some people don't want to have ambidexterity because idea is they put hard work, blood, sweat and tears to be able to preform dual-style.

That is why they made it a perk. A person who wants to play a swashbuckler is able to do without the need to cash out 15-30 CP on OHWT.

Last edited by Orochi-art; 06-12-2013 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:31 AM   #7
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Default Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Exactly. Dual-weapon deny themselves the opportunity to afford two cool big weapons.
Not true. In fact, it's easier to DWA with two cool big identical weapons, because you only need one weapon skill, DWA [5], and OHWT [1] for a total of 6 points, as the OP stated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orochi-art View Post
Basic Set, p. 417 Dual Weapon Attack
You must use All-out-Attack (Double) which means no active defense.
Not true! Dual-Weapon Attack specifically allows two attacks without the need for an All-Out Attack. You certainly do still get active defenses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orochi-art View Post
Using two weapons is nice but you could spend those CP in different, more useful ways.

For example: You could increase your shield skill by 2.
Shield gives you DB on all active defense rolls while a weapon allows you only parry and very few weapons grant bonus on parry.
Shield also gives you DB against muscle-powered ranged attacks.
Shield grants cover.
Agreed. A Shield is usually cheaper in both $ and CP, and it improves your defenses, which is usually more important than having better/more attacks (not dying is usually a higher priority than killing the other guy).
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:40 AM   #8
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Default Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique

There are four ways to make multiple attacks:

1) AoA (Double) allows two attacks without penalty but sacrifices defense.

2) Extra Attack allows two attacks with different weapons (unless Multistrike is bought) without penalty but costs [25].

3) Rapid Strike allows two attacks at -6 each, or -3 with appropriate Weapon Master or Trained By A Master.

4) DWA allows two attacks at a -4 & -8 penalty, which may be reduced for a single weapon by DWA technique [5] + OFWT [1]. Ambidexterity [5] can replace the OFWT. A DWA against a single opponent also has a bonus -1 Deceptive Attack.


The real comparison is between DWA and a Rapid Strike either with a shield or using a 2H weapon. So, assuming DX 12, here goes:

A) Using two broadswords ($600*2=$1200) at skill DX+2 [8], an additional [8] DWA will give you two attacks at 14, a -1 Deceptive, two parries at 10 or one at 12 with Cross-Parry, and [2] left over.

B) Using a broadsword and medium shield ($600+60=$660) at DX+2 [8+4], an additional [4] will give you an attack at 15 or two at 9, a 12 parry and a 12 block (usable against arrows!). I'm ignoring using the shield as a weapon, you shouldn't.

C) Using a Greatsword ($900) at DX+2 [8] an additional [8] will give an attack at 16 or two attacks at 10, 11 parry, and +2 damage.

C is better against heavily armored targets, B is cheapest and better against archers, and A is best against lightly armored targets.

What else? I haven't mentioned reach because rapiers and katanas can match the greatsword. Using a shield makes an unbalaced weapon (Morning Star!!!) reasonable. It also adds to Dodge, which can be very nice when the incoming attacks are en masse. For cost just get a Spear, with a Weapon Adaptation perk you can use it with Staff skill for the parry bonus.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:43 AM   #9
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
Not true. In fact, it's easier to DWA with two cool big identical weapons, because you only need one weapon skill, DWA [5], and OHWT [1] for a total of 6 points, as the OP stated.
Huh? You still need to pay for two cool big weapons, hope that neither of them gets damaged, and pay double when you want to upgrade them.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:48 AM   #10
Flyndaran
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Default Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique

I prefer having different weapons, wielding one big one, and a smaller one for the occasional close combat utility.
For cinematic games, two identical weapons isn' really that much different from just buying one skill extra attack and using one weapon. Then you can still use a blasted shield. :)
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