minor question 1 of 3: sneaking past goblins

[muduri]

I have three quick issues I'm thinking over for the next game of Dungeon Fantasy Hârn module B1, each worth only about a third of a thread, ha, but I figured I should post them separately.

The first is, are there more specific rules for stealth in tactical combat? I guess it would be useful for the backstab, but specifically I've mapped Quasqueton onto a hex map and our hero may have to sneak past a goblin tribe at rest - let's say 1 really alert, 3 dozing guards, 10 drinking and gambling, and another 20 sleeping.

This could be just a single Stealth roll, maybe plus a Quick Contest against the one wary guard. But for dramatic tension purposes I thought maybe there were ways to check multiple times - a roll every minute or every 5 hexes, say, and/or modifiers based on how close he has to get to the guards - using the Speed/Range table somehow? Any thoughts, or any rules I missed from the Basic Set or DF, are appreciated!

[muduri]

Ah, question partially already answered - just saw "Dungeon Fantasy backstabbing" in another post and found it in the DF1 - my oversight.

Any thoughts on the grey zone between tactical combat and abstraction still appreciated though.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by muduri

Any thoughts on the grey zone between tactical combat and abstraction still appreciated though.

Honestly, it's a GM's call. I'd consider running it as tactical combat - second by second, -5 if they go faster than move 1, etc. Someone is bound to fail a roll and start combat anyway. You may as well start out that way and find out where everyone is when it happens.

[Crakkerjakk]

Because Stealth is a binary "does he see me or not" event, I don't roll repeatedly for it. All PCs roll once per environment/situation, and then depending on how well they roll the bad guys see them if they get close enough that distance modifiers give bad guys small enough penalties to spot/hear them.

So example. Sneaky thief, Stealth skill of 16. Goblin sentry, Per of 12. Thief is trying to sneak behind the goblin. Thief rolls when he first starts trying to sneak, gets a 10. Success by 6! Goblin rolls, gets a 5. Success by 7! So in this case, assuming the thief isn't trying to sneak across a bare rock floor in front of the sentry (and giving him the +10 to see things in plain sight), the sentry will detect the thief when he gets close enough for a -1 range modifier.

Since I don't generally publicly state enemy perception rolls, this means people sneaking generally never know exactly how close they can get to someone before they spot them. But it also doesn't require inflated levels of the Stealth skill because you're rolling every turn to see whether you get spotted.

For groups of people, I use the speed/range table for bonuses. Sleeping people don't count, and I might only count half of people who are distracted. So in your example, you have 4 people on guard, 10 gambling and such (+5 because they're distracted), and 20 sleeping (don't count). So I'd look at the penalty for 9 yards and add it as a bonus to whether the goblins spot the thief. To represent the difference between the dozing guards and the alert sentry, I'd probably let the sentry use his Observation skill to detect the thief instead of just Per.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Because Stealth is a binary "does he see me or not" event, I don't roll repeatedly for it.

Actually, it doesn't have to be. Stealth really has at least two questions to answer:

• Was I detected?
• How far did I get (before either being detected, or stopping to avoid detection).

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by muduri

I

This could be just a single Stealth roll, maybe plus a Quick Contest against the one wary guard. But for dramatic tension purposes I thought maybe there were ways to check multiple times - a roll every minute or every 5 hexes, say, and/or modifiers based on how close he has to get to the guards - using the Speed/Range table somehow? Any thoughts, or any rules I missed from the Basic Set or DF, are appreciated!

Been there, done that as a player. The GM just kept rolling until I was caught. I did not enjoy that. I never snuck again. Versus a single group, one roll should be sufficient, and the drinking and gambling guards actually reduce the chance the sneak will be noticed. Mostly the modifiers for range are negative, giving the advantage to the sneak. You'd have to be right on top of the sentry before your sneaking would be penalized. Being right out in the open in a well-lit setting is about the only thing that gives the sentry an advantage.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Actually, it doesn't have to be. Stealth really has at least two questions to answer:

• Was I detected?
• How far did I get (before either being detected, or stopping to avoid detection).

It works that way if you roll per "use" (exactly as I've outlined in my example). It's not the typical use in most games I've played in, or the way it usually seems to be discussed here.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Been there, done that as a player. The GM just kept rolling until I was caught.

FWIW, I think this is a bad idea too. Even if you do it second by second, don't make them roll every turn. Roll when the circumstances change - they speed up, they close in significantly, the goblin turns to face them (changing what was a Stealth roll vs. Hearing to one vs. Vision), etc. Otherwise, if the circumstances don't change, just keep the one roll and go from there.

You could figure out the goblin's roll and the margin of failure, and as penalties accumulate (the PC sneaks closer) just see when it goes from "I don't hear you" to "I hear you" and snap into combat from there. But it's generally easier to roll against Stealth once based on where you're trying to get to (sneak up for a backstab, sneak past behind him, etc.) and see what happens.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

FWIW, I think this is a bad idea too.

Well yeah. It's just basic math. If any one failure means you get caught, then a skill level 12 in Stealth isn't anywhere near the equivalent of a skill level of 12 in any other skill that isn't "one failure and you're screwed". You need Stealth levels of like 20 just to get up behind someone for the shanking. Plus this snaps the suspenders of disbelief, because I sneak up on people all the time accidentally just because I tend to pick up my feet when I walk and they're distracted.

[Anthony]

In general, the more rolls you have to make, the easier the rolls should be; I'd prefer to make fewer harder rolls just because die rolling spam is annoying.