The Fantastic Four

[naloth]

Since Powers is out, I'm making characters again... First off, I was translating some existing heroes since it's easier to gauge your characters if you have familiar benchmarks (that and I just bought/watched the FF dvd).

So here's my first attempt:

The Thing
Benjamin Grimm
Attributes
ST 20 HP 25* [SM+1 -10%, 99] DX 12 [40] IQ 12 [40] HT 12 [20] Move: 5 [-20]
Sub-Total: 179 points

Normal Advantages
Combat Reflexes [15]
High Pain Threshold [10]
Sub-Total: 25

Supers Advantages
Dmg Reduction/4 [100], Damage Resistance (Cannot wear Armor -40%) 25 [75], Immunity to Metabolic Hazards [30], Pressure Support 3 [15], Sealed [15], Vacuum Support [5], Lifting ST 13 (Extra Effort +400%, Effective +300 ST for lifting) [195], Lifting ST +22 (Total Grappling ST 60) [66], Arms count as Strikers** [5].
Sub-Total: 506

(Total Before ST-Based Damage = 705)
Super ST Dmg Pack 1:
Striking ST (Supers Genre -40%, SM-1 -10%) +70 [175]

Super ST Dmg Pack 2:
Striking ST (Throwing Only -60%, SM-1 -10%) +70 [105]
Innate Attack (Crushing, Melee C-3 yds -20%. longer than C requires a weapon 0%) 16d [64]
Innate Attack Skill - 14 [4]

Total: 880/878 + skills - disadvantages. With skills and disads he could be an 800 point character.

*ST 20 is (mostly) for HP purposes. He grapples w/ST 60 and lifts with extra effort at ST 342. If you don't require HP within 30%, there's no advantage to "just" buying ST.

**With brick like arms, he should qualify for all the game effects of strikers over his entire body. I didn't see an easy way to do this so I just purchased one level of crushing striker. I didn't go the claws route because that doesn't include the parry as if you're using a weapon ability.

Under pkg 1 all other ST use is effectively 90 (Th 10d, Sw 12d) making his punches (+10 Striker bonus, +10 Brawling bonus) 15d+2. If Forced Entry (at DX+2) is also allowed, he doubles his bonus (+40 total) for 21d+1 damage to inanimate objects (say to compact Johnny's car). He can use objects though he probably won't gain in damage (no striker, skill bonus, even though weapons add a bit of damage for levered use), and it will require a diverse set of skills.

Under pkg 2 his throwing ST is effectively 90, but every attack whether made by punching or hitting with a lamppost is effectively 16d and at skill 14.

Designer Notes:
1) Dmg Reduction is pretty powerful. He can shrug off rifle fire easily and survive a LAW hit. 6dx10 (10) averages 210 dmg of which 2 will be blocked by DR and then he'll take 52 dmg (one life check). Naturally I could have made him tougher (more HP, more Dmg Reduction) but then it would upscale the entire campaign.

2) ST Based Melee wasn't worth taking. His "normal" ST based damage is 2d+2 - a fraction of what the innate attack does and that enhancement doubles the cost of innate attack. It's far cheaper to completely replace ST damage.

3) I included the popular variant we were discussing in the ST thread. It's slightly better in the long run, but feels a lot better when describing the character.

4) I didn't use a power modifier, though I considered it... The Thing's power aren't easily nullified and the example "you don't get points for being a dragon" seems to include him. He's more like a race of 1 than a character wielding powers.


Edits:
I prefer pkg 1, and would modify it to "Striking ST (-40% Crushing Only -10% SM -1)." I'ld also boost the level to +80 for a total of Striking ST 100. This gives him an 11d thrust which translates (+11 striker, +11 brawling) to a 17d+1 punch and 23d+2 against inanimate objects. Reasonably effective.

The Thing deserves Hard to Kill +4 (roll vs 16) and Will 14.

Immunity to Hazards might be too much. He does occasionally get colds, drunk, drugged, etc. Perhaps Resistant+8 instead.

Likewise, Pressure Support could probably go down to 2. He's done ocean walks, but not gas giants.

[nudj]

Cool.

Given the way you designed it "supers genre -40%" could really be "only crushing -40%" and be explicitly in the rules

Could the crushing attack in damge pack#2 be an alternative attack off the throwing attack (I can't quite figure out when to use AA's)?


Do you want an armor divisor attack for inanimate objects like tanks?

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by naloth

Since Powers is out, I'm making characters again... First off, I was translating some existing heroes since it's easier to gauge your characters if you have familiar benchmarks (that and I just bought/watched the FF dvd).

So here's my first attempt:

The Thing
Benjamin Grimm
Attributes
ST 20 HP 25* [SM+1 -10%, 99] DX 12 [40] IQ 12 [40] HT 12 [20] Move: 5 [-20]
Sub-Total: 179 points

Normal Advantages
Combat Reflexes [15]
High Pain Threshold [10]
Sub-Total: 25

Supers Advantages
Dmg Reduction/4 [100], Damage Resistance (Cannot wear Armor -40%) 25 [75], Immunity to Metabolic Hazards [30], Pressure Support 3 [15], Sealed [15], Vacuum Support [5], Lifting ST 13 (Extra Effort +400%, Effective +300 ST for lifting) [195], Lifting ST +22 (Total Grappling ST 60) [66], Arms count as Strikers** [5].
Sub-Total: 506

(Total Before ST-Based Damage = 705)
Super ST Dmg Pack 1:
Striking ST (Supers Genre -40%, SM-1 -10%) +70 [175]

Super ST Dmg Pack 2:
Striking ST (Throwing Only -60%, SM-1 -10%) +70 [105]
Innate Attack (Crushing, Melee C-3 yds -20%. longer than C requires a weapon 0%) 16d [64]
Innate Attack Skill - 14 [4]

Total: 880/878 + skills - disadvantages. With skills and disads he could be an 800 point character.

*ST 20 is (mostly) for HP purposes. He grapples w/ST 60 and lifts with extra effort at ST 342. If you don't require HP within 30%, there's no advantage to "just" buying ST.

**With brick like arms, he should qualify for all the game effects of strikers over his entire body. I didn't see an easy way to do this so I just purchased one level of crushing striker. I didn't go the claws route because that doesn't include the parry as if you're using a weapon ability.

Under pkg 1 all other ST use is effectively 90 (Th 10d, Sw 12d) making his punches (+10 Striker bonus, +10 Brawling bonus) 15d+2. If Forced Entry (at DX+2) is also allowed, he doubles his bonus (+40 total) for 21d+1 damage to inanimate objects (say to compact Johnny's car). He can use objects though he probably won't gain in damage (no striker, skill bonus, even though weapons add a bit of damage for levered use), and it will require a diverse set of skills.

Under pkg 2 his throwing ST is effectively 90, but every attack whether made by punching or hitting with a lamppost is effectively 16d and at skill 14.

Designer Notes:
1) Dmg Reduction is pretty powerful. He can shrug off rifle fire easily and survive a LAW hit. 6dx10 (10) averages 210 dmg of which 2 will be blocked by DR and then he'll take 52 dmg (one life check). Naturally I could have made him tougher (more HP, more Dmg Reduction) but then it would upscale the entire campaign.

2) ST Based Melee wasn't worth taking. His "normal" ST based damage is 2d+2 - a fraction of what the innate attack does and that enhancement doubles the cost of innate attack. It's far cheaper to completely replace ST damage.

3) I included the popular variant we were discussing in the ST thread. It's slightly better in the long run, but feels a lot better when describing the character.

4) I didn't use a power modifier, though I considered it... The Thing's power aren't easily nullified and the example "you don't get points for being a dragon" seems to include him. He's more like a race of 1 than a character wielding powers.

16d even IF his ST was added in won't break some of the objects the Thing has been shown to mangle or shatter. I'd up it to about 25d at minimum.

Also: Characters by default come with two complete arms. Grimm has both of his. Complete Arms count as Strikers for free. Same with his base two legs. EXTRA limbs have to be made into Strikers. Being fleshlike instead of Bricklike doesn't make your arms non-strikers. His are just more EFFECTIVE. ;)

[Fabricati]

... I was about to say something about this and Hurting Yourself, but the DR handles that quite nicely.

Which actually leads me to another question- how much would having DR apply only to hitting something (and NOT Hurting Yourself) cost?

[Fnord-Fnairlane]

Originally Posted by naloth

lifts with extra effort at ST 342.

That puts his max lift at a bit over 100 tons, which is pretty close to correct.

As for his damage, there's no easy realistic way to deal with the way damage works in the Marvel universe. I'd say about 16d is correct, so long as you apply some sort of 4-color limitation to the DR and HP of non-living things.

For example, the Thing is capable of taking on a main battle tank and winning, and not just because he can lift thing up and drop it on its turret. He can't do a Hulk and throw it half a mile, but he can put his fist through it, or tear the turret off.

Something like a 5:1 multiple between characters and "standard" tech gear is about right, but 10:1 or even more is probably closer for some eras.

For example, the Thing punching a tough but unarmoured X-Man (say: Cyclops) would be expected to KO him but not kill him - if Cyclops has 16 HP (not unreasonable) a 16d attack puts him at -2.5 x HP.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Fnord-Fnairlane

Something like a 5:1 multiple between characters and "standard" tech gear is about right, but 10:1 or even more is probably closer for some eras.

For example, the Thing punching a tough but unarmoured X-Man (say: Cyclops) would be expected to KO him but not kill him - if Cyclops has 16 HP (not unreasonable) a 16d attack puts him at -2.5 x HP.

This is one of the reasons Supers offered Stun points.

[JoelSammallahti]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

This is one of the reasons Supers offered Stun points.

I think it's much more reasonable to just give your supers a few levels of Hard to Kill.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

16d even IF his ST was added in won't break some of the objects the Thing has been shown to mangle or shatter. I'd up it to about 25d at minimum.

If you can use forced entry based on ST damage, his damage goes up at +2 per die.

A base th of 12d would give you a +12 for striker, +12 for brawling, +24 for forced entry against inanimate objects. That's +48 (42 [12d] + 4 [1d] + 2) or 25d+2. That's another +20 Striking ST on option 1 (or about 50 points).

Also: Characters by default come with two complete arms. Grimm has both of his. Complete Arms count as Strikers for free. Same with his base two legs. EXTRA limbs have to be made into Strikers. Being fleshlike instead of Bricklike doesn't make your arms non-strikers. His are just more EFFECTIVE. ;)

Arms don't count as strikers. They don't get +1 damage per die (though w/stikers you need to use brawling skill, not one of those that give you a +2/die so this is a tradeoff) and arms don't parry like CC weapons. Arms normally parry at a penalty.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by nudj

Given the way you designed it "supers genre -40%" could really be "only crushing -40%" and be explicitly in the rules

I like that idea. I prefer it to pkg #2 for usage and feel.

Could the crushing attack in damge pack#2 be an alternative attack off the throwing attack (I can't quite figure out when to use AA's)?

Generally there's 2 rules for AAs. The first is that they cannot be used (IMO even duration-wise) at the same time. The second is that they should be based on the same power source. Based on this, many GM's might let you buy these as alternate attacks. I'ld use the extra points to buy up ST based damage more.

Do you want an armor divisor attack for inanimate objects like tanks?

That's more of a campaign question. Will he need it for tanks or other bricks?
It depends on how the GM is handling things. With 4 color genre rules you might not need it.

[naloth]

Mr Fantastic
Reed Richards
Attributes
ST 15 [50] DX 12 [40] IQ 18 [160] HT 11 [10]
Subtotal: 260

Normal Advantages
Eidetic Memory (Fully Photographic) [10]
Gadgeteer [25]
Hard to Kill +5 [10]
Lighting Calc [5]
Math Talent 4 [20]
Subtotal: 70

Supers Abilities (-10%, not noted but calculated in)
Constriction (Engulfing +60%) [22.5]
Double-Jointed [13.5]
Dmg Reduction/4 [100]
Dmg Resistance 50 (Elastic/Tough Skin -40%, No Armor -40%, Physical Only -20%) [50]
Flight (Gliding Only -50%) [20]
Lifting ST +40 (Not Enc -20%, Restrain only cannot constrict -20%) [60]
Pressure Support 2 [10]
Striking ST +40 (Throwing Only -60%, Requires Object -10%) [40]
Stretching 12 [65]
Super Jumping 4 (Bouncing Only 0%) [36]
Subtotal: 417

Skills
Science-22 (w/o math talent bonuses) [72]

Total: 819

Designer notes: I gave Mr Fantastic three basic attacks. First he can restrain people by wrapping himself around them (effective ST 55), second he can rebound and rubberband launch things (effective ST 55), and third he can slam attack provided he can generate the necessary speed first.

His DR doesn't protect from blunt trauma so wolverine can bruise him by kicking, but it shouldn't do any signficant damage. Likewise, he can survive a chunk of damage even though all he gets against energy attacks is /4.

I also included Hard to Kill (effective HT 16 for life checks) to increase his survivability. I probably should back include this to the Thing too.