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Old 04-22-2013, 04:55 PM   #31
DanHoward
 
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Default Re: Knowing the outcome of an attack before choosing to actively defend

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Originally Posted by Pagan View Post
I've never been in a fight or even seen a real fight where a person threw a feint so bad or missed with an attack so badly that the opponent didn't react to it. Even if it's just getting hit because their reaction was too slow. Even bad blows get blocked, parried or dodged. Not reacting only happens when the opponent is stunned, blindsided or covering up.

What any boxing match or UFC fight fight and see if you can spot one.
I've done it personally. During a fight I've seen attacks that I judged were going to either miss completely or hit somewhere that I knew would not hurt much so instead of dealing with it, I ignored it and used their opening to improve my attack. Sometimes I judged wrongly. One time I ended up in hospital with broken ribs. Another time I misjudged the distance of a footsweep. I was already balanced so he couldn't take out my front leg so I ignored his sweep but he stretched just far enough to clip my back leg too and I and landed on my back with my head hitting the floor. A third one was a back kick that I knew was too low so I let it go between my legs as I moved in but he hooked his leg up and his heel collected the family jewels.
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Last edited by DanHoward; 04-22-2013 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:23 PM   #32
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Default Re: Knowing the outcome of an attack before choosing to actively defend

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
A critical success on a defense roll has no bearing whatsoever on whether an attacker has a critical failure or not.
A crit on a melee defense does force the attacker to roll on the critical miss table, however (B 381). This makes high (16+) defenses particularly odious in melee due to the extended crit.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:02 AM   #33
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Default Re: Knowing the outcome of an attack before choosing to actively defend

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
I've done it personally. During a fight I've seen attacks that I judged were going to either miss completely or hit somewhere that I knew would not hurt much so instead of dealing with it, I ignored it and used their opening to improve my attack. Sometimes I judged wrongly. One time I ended up in hospital with broken ribs. Another time I misjudged the distance of a footsweep. I was already balanced so he couldn't take out my front leg so I ignored his sweep but he stretched just far enough to clip my back leg too and I and landed on my back with my head hitting the floor. A third one was a back kick that I knew was too low so I let it go between my legs as I moved in but he hooked his leg up and his heel collected the family jewels.
That's not really ignoring the attack. You used an opening. I'm sure you used either footwork, angling or positioning to place yourself beyond the reach of the attack or set yourself up for your counter technique. In either case, you made a conscious choice to ignore the attack which is still an option. A Gurps player can say "I don't defend" and take their chances. The times where you ignore the attacks and got hit anyway were the times you guessed or read wrong.

I've read attacks also but I always position myself so that I'm not in the way. I get hit if I am too slow, position incorrectly or read wrong (one of my kempo instructions told us that not getting hit is the best defense right after attacking first). I've had players use defensive feint and then choose to ignore an attack on themselves based off of their roll.

Bottom line, I don't think you lose anything by declaring the defense and doing so opens up lots of tactical options.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:47 AM   #34
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Default Re: Knowing the outcome of an attack before choosing to actively defend

Most gameing systems I've seen - onces with a half-decent combat system mind you - use the. "Declarare Attack, Resolce Attack. Declare Defence, Resolve Defence" method like GURPS.

The only ones that come to my mind are:
*Millenium's End where you. "Declare Attack. Declare and Resolve Defence, if succesful don't roll Attack other wise do roll Attack"
*Riddle of Steel where the whole combat system along with initiative is completely different. Basically it's a Double-Blind and a Pool system, where you have a Combat Pool of a bunch od d10s. Each Combat Round is 2 Exchanges. At first Initiative is resolved by double-blindly choosing either a red die for attack or a white die for defence.
White-White means both sides circle and wait for an opening, prepared to defend.
Red-White means Red attacks by declaring an Attack Manoeuvre, specifying the type of attack - slash or stab and an angle of attack, and secretly chooses a number of dice from his Pool. The defender then declares a Defensive Manoeuvre and secretly chooses a number of dice. Remember to save dice for the second part of the Exchange. Both sides show their dice and resolve, each die must attain a specific Target Number, and you count the number of successes. If Attacker wins, he hits the other guy, and his Margin of Succes affects damage, plus he keeps Initiative. If Defender wins he not only avoids the attack, but he wins Initiative for the next Exchange.
Red-Red means both sides attack, and as no Defenses are rolles both attacks are bound to have massive Margins of Succes and thus do grave damage!
There are also a number of clever Manoeuvres to use, like Feints, Disarming, Binding etc. depeding on the weapons used and fighting style.

This is by far the most Tactical system I've ever seen, detailed and gritty. Very good for epic duels. It demands that you make hard decisions rather than simply attack each round.
Sadly I've never played it much.
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Old 04-23-2013, 06:13 AM   #35
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Default Re: Knowing the outcome of an attack before choosing to actively defend

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
I've done it personally. During a fight I've seen attacks that I judged were going to either miss completely or hit somewhere that I knew would not hurt much so instead of dealing with it, I ignored it and used their opening to improve my attack. Sometimes I judged wrongly. One time I ended up in hospital with broken ribs. Another time I misjudged the distance of a footsweep. I was already balanced so he couldn't take out my front leg so I ignored his sweep but he stretched just far enough to clip my back leg too and I and landed on my back with my head hitting the floor. A third one was a back kick that I knew was too low so I let it go between my legs as I moved in but he hooked his leg up and his heel collected the family jewels.
So to me that sounds like deciding not to defend, but to instead rely on your opponent not hitting you or the situation making the likelihood of getting hit low (i.e effective distance) etc. The point being when that chaps sweep actually contacted your back leg, you had missed the opportunity to defend against it.

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
Most gameing systems I've seen - onces with a half-decent combat system mind you - use the. "Declarare Attack, Resolce Attack. Declare Defence, Resolve Defence" method like GURPS.

The only ones that come to my mind are:
*Millenium's End where you. "Declare Attack. Declare and Resolve Defence, if succesful don't roll Attack other wise do roll Attack"
*Riddle of Steel where the whole combat system along with initiative is completely different. Basically it's a Double-Blind and a Pool system, where you have a Combat Pool of a bunch od d10s. Each Combat Round is 2 Exchanges. At first Initiative is resolved by double-blindly choosing either a red die for attack or a white die for defence.
White-White means both sides circle and wait for an opening, prepared to defend.
Red-White means Red attacks by declaring an Attack Manoeuvre, specifying the type of attack - slash or stab and an angle of attack, and secretly chooses a number of dice from his Pool. The defender then declares a Defensive Manoeuvre and secretly chooses a number of dice. Remember to save dice for the second part of the Exchange. Both sides show their dice and resolve, each die must attain a specific Target Number, and you count the number of successes. If Attacker wins, he hits the other guy, and his Margin of Succes affects damage, plus he keeps Initiative. If Defender wins he not only avoids the attack, but he wins Initiative for the next Exchange.
Red-Red means both sides attack, and as no Defenses are rolles both attacks are bound to have massive Margins of Succes and thus do grave damage!
There are also a number of clever Manoeuvres to use, like Feints, Disarming, Binding etc. depeding on the weapons used and fighting style.

This is by far the most Tactical system I've ever seen, detailed and gritty. Very good for epic duels. It demands that you make hard decisions rather than simply attack each round.
Sadly I've never played it much.
The fact that I like TroS is probably a factor here! have you looked at it's successor Blade of the iron Throne

Last edited by Tomsdad; 04-23-2013 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 04-23-2013, 09:00 AM   #36
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Default Re: Knowing the outcome of an attack before choosing to actively defend

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So to me that sounds likes deciding not to defend, but to instead rely on your opponent not hitting you or the situation making the likelihood of getting hit low (i.e effective distance) etc. The point being when that chaps sweep actually contacted your back leg, you had missed the opportunity to defend against it.
I'd be tempted to call it a critical hit precluding a defense.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:10 AM   #37
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Default Re: Knowing the outcome of an attack before choosing to actively defend

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I'd be tempted to call it a critical hit precluding a defense.
Maybe but DanHoward certainly seems to be suggesting it was an error in his judgement (sorry) in that he thought he was safe but in fact wasn't, i.e. it seemed to imply a lack of action on his part.

What you describe would IMO be an attack so great that nothing you could do would have stopped it.

Actual that's a point anyone ever tried playing that a critical defence can negate a critical (in RAW it would of course just be an extra roll for the sake of crit fishing). But In my suggestion it would be worth thinking about because you might well do both rolls anyway.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:33 PM   #38
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Default Re: Knowing the outcome of an attack before choosing to actively defend

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Hi all. There are several old threads discussing DECIDE, and more on my site, so I don't know if there's much new to be said, but quick notes for the curious:

The full write-up is at http://www.gamesdiner.com/decide . It discusses the full what and why, the benefits and drawbacks, the special-case considerations, etc. (The version there also addresses my failed Writing rolls in old write-ups, which I hope has cleared up some early points of confusion.)

The sweetly short version that appeared in Pyramid only addresses the most important usage scenario, defense vs bullets. It's the simple rule I'd suggest interested GMs try out. All it says is:

People can't actually track and dodge bullets. When the lead flies, don't tell the targets, "Miss... Miss... Oh, this one's going to hit! What do you do?"

Instead, tell the targets, "They're shooting at you! What do you do?"

That's all. From there, everything proceeds as you'd expect: The targets take action – Drop? Dive for cover? Dodge generically? Hold fast [to Aim, Concentrate, etc.] and hope the bullets miss? – as appropriate for a character under fire. If TH misses, then the gunfire misses, per RAW. If TH hits, then the gunfire might hit: the target checks defense, per RAW.

Nothing else to it, other than the consideration of whether to do the same for non-gunfire attacks. It's debatable. I like the effects in melee (see article), but the "why not defend?" reply that jacobmuller posted (I hadn't seen that before) is a fine explanation for GMs who'd prefer to leave melee as it is. No problem there!

But for defense vs gunfire, the above tweak is sensible and, IMO, just more fun.



Correct. Though for me, "The Nazis open fire; what do you do!?" is exactly the decision I want to play in combat. I find it more fun to hear the player shout "I dive for cover!", than to tell the player to wait up [and possibly do nothing] while we do some dice rolling first...

YMMV, of course!
Your article in Pyramid #3/34 is great! I'm using most of it. {although I don't get Hesitation...:)}
I like and understand the idea of DECIDE. For ranged combat, I prefer a variant of the Limiting Dodges options from Martial Arts, which is similar to your tweak and DECIDE option 1.
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:08 PM   #39
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Default Re: Knowing the outcome of an attack before choosing to actively defend

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
Most gameing systems I've seen - onces with a half-decent combat system mind you - use the. "Declarare Attack, Resolce Attack. Declare Defence, Resolve Defence" method like GURPS.
Rolemaster is another example.

At the start of the round you transfer as much as you want of your offensive bonus (OB) to your defensive bonus (DB). There is no actual defensive roll though. An attack is d100 roll + your OB - opponents DB, and look it up on a chart. I think you have to split the OB transferred to DB if you want to parry multiple opponents but that your intrinsic DB (which is mostly how fast you are and armour quality) is full against everyone.

The combat round is 10 seconds and does not represent one strike but a series of attacks, feints, and parries.
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Old 04-23-2013, 06:16 PM   #40
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Default Re: Knowing the outcome of an attack before choosing to actively defend

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Maybe but DanHoward certainly seems to be suggesting it was an error in his judgement (sorry) in that he thought he was safe but in fact wasn't, i.e. it seemed to imply a lack of action on his part.

What you describe would IMO be an attack so great that nothing you could do would have stopped it.
I don't necessarily think of critical hits as superbly skilled attacks. Dumb luck can just as easily explain the results, especially in a case of modest skill.
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