GURPS Traveller Starships Engineering Modules

[trux]

Morning all,

On GURPS Traveller Starships p. 36 an Engineering Module is described as having the following components.

1. Power Core
2. Total Life Support
3. Full Fire Suppress System
4. 6-man Airlock
5. 100 foot Armored Passage Tube.

In my opinion the 6-man Airlock and 100 foot Armored Passage Tube are better described as a type of Entry Module per GURPS Traveller Starships p. 128 as a type of entry module.

Per GURPS Traveller Starships p. 124 the Engineer module/10 requires 1 Space in the hull which includes a power core requires 0.5 spaces.

1. A power core/10 requires 0.5 Spaces per GURPS Traveller Starships p. 124

2. Total Life Support/10 requires 0.5 Spaces per GURPS Traveller Starships p. 126. VE2e p. 78 also lists a life support requirement of adding 5 cubic feet of space per person.

3. Full Fire Suppress, per GURPS Traveller Starships p. 68 is referred to as Heavy Duty and is an optional component requiring 5 cf. My guess is that this is included as waste space.

4. 6-man Airlock no data given in GURPS Traveller Starships that I could find.

5. 100 foot Armored Passage Tube per GURPS Traveller Starships p. 128 requires 0.5 spaces.

If a module is the sum of the parts by my calculations a TL 10 Engineering Module requires at minimum: Engineer Module with Power Core 1.0 + Life Support 0.5 + Passage Tube 0.5 = 1 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 1.5 + 0.5 = 2.0

Using VE2e p. 69 TL 7+ airlocks require 50 cubic feet per person, 50 x 6 = 300cubic feet or 300/500 = 0.6 dtons. Rounding up the airlock volume is 1 dton.

Including the 6-man airlock the total spaces for an Engineer/10 is 3 cubic feet.

With or without the airlock the Engineer modules appear to be off.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by trux

Morning all,

On GURPS Traveller Starships p. 36 an Engineering Module is described as having the following components.

1. Power Core
2. Total Life Support
3. Full Fire Suppress System
4. 6-man Airlock
5. 100 foot Armored Passage Tube.

In my opinion the 6-man Airlock and 100 foot Armored Passage Tube are better described as a type of Entry Module per GURPS Traveller Starships p. 128 as a type of entry module.

You're mixing unlike design systems, reading things incorrectly, and getting odd results.

1. Power Core is 2000 pounds for a Fusion Plant. That's 40cf plus 80cf for Access Space, 120cf total.
2. It includes a Total Life Support Core, not a whole Life Support Module. The Life Support Core is the base weight of a Total Life Support system from VE2 p. 78, which is 400 pounds and 5 cf. The Life Support cf per person is subsumed in the Stateroom modules, not the Engineering Core. Basically, just like power using components have "Power Slices" the Staterooms have "Life Support Slices" designed into them.
3. Fire Suppression is 4cf, VE2 p. 65.
4. A 6-man Airlock, by VE2 p. 69 is 50cf per person, or 300cf total
5. An Armored Passage Tube is 40cf, VE2 p. 69.

120cf + 5cf + 4cf + 300cf + 40cf = 469cf. A Displacement Ton is 500cf. Throw in 31cf of empty space and the numbers add up if you build the all of the modules all the Vehicles 2nd Edition system.

It's when you mix-and-match the modules from the Traveller, GT:Starships, and Vehicles systems that you're getting into trouble, mainly because the modules in GT and GT:S are all rounded off/rounded up equipment taken from the Vehicles book. Or, to put it another way, if you round all values up to the next 0.5 before adding them together then 0.1+0.2+0.6+0.1 = 2.5 instead of 1.0, because rounding carries with it a largish margin for error.

[Pomphis]

Or, to say the same in other words, no module is build from other modules. All components of a module come from VE2 and are build with VE2. No component of a module is another module. You use VE2 to build modules, and then you use modules to build a ship.

[trux]

Morning ericbsmih and Pomphis,

Thank you both for the replies and explanations on how the modules for GURPS Traveller Starships are created.

Since my AESA topic has drifted I'll ask again here:

Using VE2e I am creating an AESA/8 system with a non-space range of 30,000 miles and a space range of 300,000 miles.

1. Weight = Non-space Range x Weight factor from the Radar Table VE2e p. 52 x AESA multiplier:

Weight = 30,000 x 2 x 1.5 = 60,000 x 1.5 = 90,000 pounds

2. Volume = Non-space Range x Volume factor from the Radar Table VE2e p. 52 x AESA multiplier:

Volume = 30,000 x 0.04 x 1.5 = 1,200 x 1.5 = 1,800 cubic feet

3. Cost = Non-space Range x Cost factor from the Radar Table VE2e p. 52 x AESA multiplier:

Cost = 30,000 x 1,000 x 5 = 30,000,000 x 5 = 150,000,000

4. Power = Non-space Range x Power factor from the Radar Table VE2e p. 52 x AESA multiplier:

Power = 30,000 x 0.25 x 1 = 7,500 kW.

Converting to GURPS Traveller:

1. Weight = Pounds/2,000 pound = stons

Weight = 90,000 pounds/2,000 pounds = 45 stons

2. Volume = cubic feet/500 cubic feet = stons

Volume = 1,800 cubic feet/500 cubic feet = 3.6 dtons = 4 dtons in GURPS Traveller Starships.

3. Cost = Cost/1,000,000 millions

Cost = 150,000,000/1,000,000 = 150

4. Power = Power kW/1,000 = MW

Power = 7,500 kW/1,000 = 7.5 MW


AESA Array/8: Spaces = 4; Mass = 45; Cost = 150; Power = 7.5 MW

GURPS Traveller Starships p. 136

ULt. AESA Array/8: Spaces = 5.5; Mass = 37.5; Cost = 10.6; Power = 7.5 MW

If per the posts that I'm mixing the systems have I gone wrong?

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by trux

Morning ericbsmih and Pomphis,

1. Weight = Non-space Range x Weight factor from the Radar Table VE2e p. 52 x AESA multiplier:

Weight = 30,000 x 2 x 1.5 = 60,000 x 1.5 = 90,000 pounds

<SNIP>

If per the posts that I'm mixing the systems have I gone wrong?

Under the Radar Table, p. 52:

"Exception: If a sensor has over 125 miles range, its cost is the number
shown on the table multiplied by [100 + (1/5 its range)]."

A Range of 30,000 miles is definitely over 125 miles, so rather than multiplying everything by 30000 you should be multiplying it by [100 + (1/5 * 30000) ] = 6100. Everything else goes off the rails from there.

[trux]

Hi ericbsmith,

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Under the Radar Table, p. 52:

"Exception: If a sensor has over 125 miles range, its cost is the number
shown on the table multiplied by [100 + (1/5 its range)]."

A Range of 30,000 miles is definitely over 125 miles, so rather than multiplying everything by 30000 you should be multiplying it by [100 + (1/5 * 30000) ] = 6100. Everything else goes off the rails from there.

My interpretation of the exception is that the equation is used only for cost not for weight, volume, and power. Note that using the range of 30,000 miles times 0.25 matches the power requirement for the ULt. AESA Array/8 listed on GURPS Traveller Starships p. 136.

Let's see if the mass, volume, and cost work using 6,100 instead of 30,000.

1. Weight = Non-space Range x Weight factor from the Radar Table VE2e p. 52 x AESA multiplier:

Weight = 6,100 x 2 x 1.5 = 12,200 x 1.5 = 18,300 pounds

2. Volume = Non-space Range x Volume factor from the Radar Table VE2e p. 52 x AESA multiplier:

Volume = 6,100 x 0.04 x 1.5 = 244 x 1.5 = 366 cubic feet

3. Cost = Non-space Range x Cost factor from the Radar Table VE2e p. 52 x AESA multiplier:

Cost = 6,100 x 1,000 x 5 = 6,100,000 x 5 = 3,500,000

Converting to GURPS Traveller:

1. Weight = Pounds/2,000 pound = stons

Weight = 18,300 pounds/2,000 pounds = 9.15 stons

2. Volume = cubic feet/500 cubic feet = dtons

Volume = 366 cubic feet/500 cubic feet = 0.732 dtons = 1 dtons in GURPS Traveller Starships.

3. Cost = Cost/1,000,000 millions

Cost = 3,500,000/1,000,000 = 3.5

AESA Array/8: Spaces = 1; Mass = 9.15; Cost = 3.5; Power = 7.5 MW

GURPS Traveller Starships p. 136

ULt. AESA Array/8: Spaces = 5.5; Mass = 37.5; Cost = 10.6; Power = 7.5 MW

Apparently I still haven't figured out where I'm going wrong.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by trux

My interpretation of the exception is that the equation is used only for cost not for weight, volume, and power.

You are correct. I was in a hurry and couldn't play with the numbers.

Originally Posted by trux

Apparently I still haven't figured out where I'm going wrong.

What you are missing is 1) the Fission Power Slice that is included in the module and 2) several of the options that the AESA has. The AESA has both Air Search (AS) and No Targeting (NT) options applied (how do I know this? Because some options need to be added to make the numbers line up, and those two options are the most appropriate ones. Plus when I add them the numbers actually line up perfectly).

Power Requirement:
30000 (miles) * 0.25 (kW) = 7500 kW / 1000 = 7.5 MW

AESA Weight: 30000 (miles) * 2 (lbs) * 1.5 (AESA) * 1 (AS) * 0.5 (NT) = 45000 lbs
Fission Weight: 4 (lbs/kW) * 7500 (kW) = 30000 lbs
45,000 + 30,000 = 75,000 lbs / 2000 (lbs/ton) = 37.5 tons

AESA Volume: 30000 (miles) * 0.04 (cf) * 1.5 (AESA) * 1 (AS) * 0.5 (NT) = 900 cf
Fission Volume: 30000 (lbs) * 3 (access space) / 50 (cf/lb) = 1800 cf
900 + 1800 = 2700 cf / 500 (cf/dTon) = 5.4 dTon, rounds to 5.5 dTon

AESA Cost: 100 + (30000 (miles) * 1/5 ) = 6100
6100 * 1000 (radar) * 5 (AESA) * 0.5 (AS) * 0.5 (NT) = 7,625,000
Fission Cost: 30000 (lbs) * 100 = 3,000,000
7,625,000 + 3,000,000 = 10,625,000 / 1000000 = 10.625, rounds to 10.6

et voila, 37.5 tons, 5.5 dTons, 10.6 $M, and 7.5 MW

[trux]

Evening ericbsmith,

I did totally skip the power slice in both of my run through.

Unfortunately, I am not understanding why you only used air search radar mode when Per VE2e p. 51:

"Option - Active Electromagnetic Sensor Array (AESA, TL 8): This option gives the "radar" the ability to switch between search radar mode, low-res imaging mode, hi-res imaging mode, and ladar mode. When in low-res imaging radar or ladar mode range is halved (which gives 02 Scan). When in hi-res imaging radar mode, range is1/50 normal (each mile of range is treated as 35 yards; also recalculate Scan)."

There are three other modes that if by what is shown should also affect the weight, volume, cost, and power.

Please explain why they are not included?

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

You are correct. I was in a hurry and couldn't play with the numbers.

What you are missing is 1) the Fission Power Slice that is included in the module and 2) several of the options that the AESA has. The AESA has both Air Search (AS) and No Targeting (NT) options applied (how do I know this? Because some options need to be added to make the numbers line up, and those two options are the most appropriate ones. Plus when I add them the numbers actually line up perfectly).

Power Requirement:
30000 (miles) * 0.25 (kW) = 7500 kW / 1000 = 7.5 MW

AESA Weight: 30000 (miles) * 2 (lbs) * 1.5 (AESA) * 1 (AS) * 0.5 (NT) = 45000 lbs
Fission Weight: 4 (lbs/kW) * 7500 (kW) = 30000 lbs
45,000 + 30,000 = 75,000 lbs / 2000 (lbs/ton) = 37.5 tons

AESA Volume: 30000 (miles) * 0.04 (cf) * 1.5 (AESA) * 1 (AS) * 0.5 (NT) = 900 cf
Fission Volume: 30000 (lbs) * 3 (access space) / 50 (cf/lb) = 1800 cf
900 + 1800 = 2700 cf / 500 (cf/dTon) = 5.4 dTon, rounds to 5.5 dTon

AESA Cost: 100 + (30000 (miles) * 1/5 ) = 6100
6100 * 1000 (radar) * 5 (AESA) * 0.5 (AS) * 0.5 (NT) = 7,625,000
Fission Cost: 30000 (lbs) * 100 = 3,000,000
7,625,000 + 3,000,000 = 10,625,000 / 1000000 = 10.625, rounds to 10.6

et voila, 37.5 tons, 5.5 dTons, 10.6 $M, and 7.5 MW

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by trux

There are three other modes that if by what is shown should also affect the weight, volume, cost, and power.

Please explain why they are not included?

From the VE2 description: "[AESA] is incompatible with either imaging radar or ladar options."

From my reading AESA has these other enhanced modes built in. OTOH Air Search is a design limitation, and is not incompatible with AESA.

[trux]

Afternoon (PDT) ericbsmith,

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

From the VE2 description: "[AESA] is incompatible with either imaging radar or ladar options."

From my reading AESA has these other enhanced modes built in. OTOH Air Search is a design limitation, and is not incompatible with AESA.

Thanks for the clarification and my apologies for the delay in replying. I'm a bit under the weather right now.