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Old 04-14-2013, 02:16 AM   #1
nik1979
 
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Default Define a Maneuver

I remember reading Rapid Strike: Feint and Attack as a Valid, but it makes me confused with the definition of Maneuver. I'm curious how did a Manuever become sub-categorized into something equal to an Attack? What is a better definition of a Maneuver given this method

A Maneuver is a Course of Action
Attack = Strike
Can a Maneuver like Feint become part of a Rapid Strike, does that mean other maneuvers can be part of a Rapid Strike?
With Rapid Strike, I can Ready instead of Attack, and Strike despite being unready.
Isn't Rapid strike an Attack Option Categorically? Wouldn't an action that would subsume or allow for multiple maneuvers better called "Rapid Maneuvering"
Why can't I then Evaluate and Execute a Ready maneuver? Attention is on Target, Conditioned Physical Response is to Ready the weapon? Why Can't I Aim and Ready a Bow at the same time? Aim is attention on opponent relative to weapon, while physical trained response is drawing the bow.

I can have Multiple Strikes in a Course of Action
I can have a redistribution of Defense and Attack attention in a Course of Action, thus affecting my attacks and defense.
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Old 04-14-2013, 02:27 AM   #2
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Default Re: Define a Maneuver

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Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
I remember reading Rapid Strike: Feint and Attack as a Valid, but it makes me confused with the definition of Maneuver. I'm curious how did a Manuever become sub-categorized into something equal to an Attack?
It didn't. Maneuvers are listed on B363.

Quote:
Can a Maneuver like Feint become part of a Rapid Strike, does that mean other maneuvers can be part of a Rapid Strike?
Not as a Maneuver, no -- and even if Feint could, it would not follow that all Maneuvers can be so treated.

The Rapid Strike that consists of a feint and then an attack is an option introduced in Martial Arts (MA127), where it specifies that you can trade a melee attack for a feint.

The Maneuver you take to use Rapid Strike is either Attack or All-out Attack (B370). This rule says you can make two attacks (small 'a'), not that you take two Maneuvers. Using the MA option, you could then substitute a feint (small 'f') for one of those attacks -- most usefuly the first one.
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Old 04-14-2013, 02:28 AM   #3
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Default Re: Define a Maneuver

I was reading through the attack maneuvers just yesterday, Feint and attack is it's own maneuver, not part of rapid strike if I recall correctly.
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Old 04-14-2013, 02:36 AM   #4
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Default Re: Define a Maneuver

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
I remember reading Rapid Strike: Feint and Attack as a Valid, but it makes me confused with the definition of Maneuver. I'm curious how did a Manuever become sub-categorized into something equal to an Attack? What is a better definition of a Maneuver given this method
To my knowledge it has not. the Maneuvers are: Do Nothing, Move, Aim, Evaluate, Attack, Feint, All-Out Attack, Move and Attack, All-Out Defense, Concentrate, Ready and Wait.
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Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
A Maneuver is a Course of Action
Attack = Strike
Can a Maneuver like Feint become part of a Rapid Strike, does that mean other maneuvers can be part of a Rapid Strike?
Only attacks or Feints can be part of a Rapid Strike.

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Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
With Rapid Strike, I can Ready instead of Attack, and Strike despite being unready.
Nope, attacks cannot be traded for Ready's
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Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
Isn't Rapid strike an Attack Option Categorically? Wouldn't an action that would subsume or allow for multiple maneuvers better called "Rapid Maneuvering"
No, you cannot get extra Concentrates, Evaluates, Moves etc, just attacks.

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Why can't I then Evaluate and Execute a Ready maneuver? Attention is on Target, Conditioned Physical Response is to Ready the weapon?
Conditioned physical response would be represented by the Fast Draw skill.
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Why Can't I Aim and Ready a Bow at the same time? Aim is attention on opponent relative to weapon, while physical trained response is drawing the bow.
Without Altered Time rate or some such, you can only pay attention to one thing at a time. Just the way it works!
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Old 04-14-2013, 02:40 AM   #5
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Default Re: Define a Maneuver

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I was reading through the attack maneuvers just yesterday, Feint and attack is it's own maneuver, not part of rapid strike if I recall correctly.
Martial Arts allows you use swap a feint for an attack and I means small a attack not the Maneuver.

Feint got semi downgraded when the got more detailed in what you could do as an attack.

thimk of it this way just like the as Capital A attack for the maneuver then there is lower case a attack actions, Feint has a capital F maneuver and well as lower case feint actions which are considered equivalent to attacks.
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Old 04-14-2013, 03:24 AM   #6
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Default Re: Define a Maneuver

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
Attack = Strike
No attack isn't only strike, it's also a grapple, a slam, an attempt to take down and many other things that are all "attacks" but not directly "strikes".

As others have pointed out the only "manoeuvre" that has become a combat-option is Feint, and that's because it really was a combat option all along. It was just treated as a separate manoeuvre in Basic for simplicity. (and even the nit was treated specially for instance being part of an All Out Attack manoeuvre).


But. If you want, you could rule that ready actions could be part of a Rapid Strike (Heroic Archer allows this). Or that you can exchange attacks for Step's (Some cinematic rule option in Martial Arts allow this).
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Old 04-14-2013, 04:20 AM   #7
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Default Re: Define a Maneuver

Thank you for the responses,

Double Checking if I understood it Correctly -
Feint has become something like the Attack Maneuver - So it can be made as part of a rapid strike.

Ready has become something like the attack and feint maneuver - so it can be made as a part of rapid strike.

Evaluation or Aim or Concentrate are considered maneuvers and cannot be combined with something that could be done reflexively like Ready despite it being in a subclass that is equal to an Attack.

So Fast Draw can be done in one smooth motion is a free action which can be done with Concentrate, Evaluate, and if some Aim Maneuver.

Readying a weapon that is unready but held can be done as part of a Rapid Strike Attack Option but cannot be combined with another maneuver like Move Only, Evaluate, Aim (ex. holding a pistol aimed while shifting an axe to a ready position), or Concentrate.

Maneuver Options, Attack Options - Feint and Ready are "special" attack options. So there is an Two Attack Options that are very much related - Feint and Deceptive Attack.

Can I Feint with an Unready Weapon?
Can I Feint and Ready as a Rapid Strike?** (using Two Unbalanced Weapons)
Can I Fast-draw Ready and Feint with Rapid Strike?
Can I Feint against Two Targets with Rapid Strike?

**note the Skill Penalty of Rapid Strike is less compared to some Unbalanced Weapons with the requisite Strength to wield the weapon ending the Turn always at ready. >12 weapon being wielded 1h where the strength requirement tends to be around 6 points translating to -6.

My impression of a maneuver was a tactical mode, a category where actions like Attack, Movement, and Attention had a certain arrangement, allowing various combinations but favored various actions over others. The Rapid Strike kind has broadened the definition for me, and I'm curious what are its limits.

Maneuver > Attack Option
now that Feint and Readying fall similar to Attack Options, can it be done as part of a Move and Attack? I know it may be overly but
Move and Attack (-4) + Rapid Strike (-1 with WM + 1FP): Ready & Feint covering Move Distance
Move and Attack (-4) + Rapid Strike: ready and Ready
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Last edited by nik1979; 04-14-2013 at 04:31 AM.
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Old 04-14-2013, 04:51 AM   #8
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Default Re: Define a Maneuver

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Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
Thank you for the responses,

Double Checking if I understood it Correctly -
Feint has become something like the Attack Maneuver - So it can be made as part of a rapid strike.
No, Feint has become like an attack (little "a") as of Martial Arts, so best to pretend Feint is no longer a Maneuver, and just an attack technique. As an attack technique, it can be part of a rapid strike.
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Ready has become something like the attack and feint maneuver - so it can be made as a part of rapid strike.
No again. Ready is still a Maneuver. Though certain ready-s of course can be trained to do in zero time as a Fast Draw, but only certain weapons and small items can benefit from this kind of training.
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Evaluation or Aim or Concentrate are considered maneuvers and cannot be combined with something that could be done reflexively like Ready despite it being in a subclass that is equal to an Attack.
If you first fast-draw your weapon in zero time with a successful fast draw roll, you can then spend your Maneuver Aiming or Evaluating. (and Ready is not a subclass of attacking, it is it's own Maneuver)
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So Fast Draw can be done in one smooth motion is a free action which can be done with Concentrate, Evaluate, and if some Aim Maneuver.
Yes. And you need to fast draw first. If you fail your roll, you are automatically taking a regular ready for the turn, and if you succeed, you can do whatever you want.
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Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
Readying a weapon that is unready but held can be done as part of a Rapid Strike Attack Option but cannot be combined with another maneuver like Move Only, Evaluate, Aim (ex. holding a pistol aimed while shifting an axe to a ready position), or Concentrate.
I don't think so.
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Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
Maneuver Options, Attack Options - Feint and Ready are "special" attack options. So there is an Two Attack Options that are very much related - Feint and Deceptive Attack.
Again Ready is not a special Attack option
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Can I Feint with an Unready Weapon?
No
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Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
Can I Feint and Ready as a Rapid Strike?** (using Two Unbalanced Weapons)
No
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Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
Can I Fast-draw Ready and Feint with Rapid Strike?
Kind of, you can fast draw and attack, if you rapid strike after your fast draw, you can then feint and and attack as your rapid strike, but I think I would just feint and then rapid strike the next turn so both attacks would benefit from a full skill feint.
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Can I Feint against Two Targets with Rapid Strike?
I suppose....
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Old 04-14-2013, 08:24 AM   #9
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Default Re: Define a Maneuver

thanks for the response the_matrix_walker, hope you can understand my confusion. I was editing Lite for my own games (compressing it into a cellphone readable size) when a use of rapid strike in a previous game began confusing me (and I was familiar with the same rule because it was already tackled in the forums). When exceptions to the rules began happening, the consequences are that the definition of what is a maneuver and an "a"ttack began getting mixed up.

It was easy to let people learn lite, and remove some options but when some maneuvers began acting like "a"ttacks things can get confusing. Maneuver Options was similar to Stance options in other game systems, and when Maneuvers were being used as "a"ttacks it can get confusing and cluttered.

When I would explain to a newbie, "A"ttack Maneuver vs "a"ttacks it was simple to just say "A"ttack Manuever "Standard" Attack Maneuver vs An "a"ttack and to Explain the difference between "a"ttack options vs maneuver options.

note that some "readying" techniques can be defined as realistic even with large weapons. In my Kali training the reflexive whirls allowed me to change grip while watching my opponent, in Wushu staff twirls served the same purpose even allowing the practitioner to hide the grip, expend the momentum, relax the grip to conserving their energy, and while observing. These twirls and shifts are trained to be reflexive, so you may need a second to elapse to expend the momentum but you an maintain guard.

In fire-arms, its pretty much chamber clearing while observing the battle field taking a Wait maneuver but performing a "fast-draw" action in case the trigger does not occur. Its reloading reflexively and by touch.

So if one exception is made, how about something more plausible and actually more common: Evaluate or Wait while readying and moving.
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Old 04-14-2013, 08:47 AM   #10
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Default Re: Define a Maneuver

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In fire-arms, its pretty much chamber clearing while observing the battle field taking a Wait maneuver but performing a "fast-draw" action in case the trigger does not occur. Its reloading reflexively and by touch.

So if one exception is made, how about something more plausible and actually more common: Evaluate or Wait while readying and moving.
In both of these cases, I might ask for perhaps a perk (maybe not), but definitely a skill roll. Might be at a bonus for common stuff, tho.
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