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Old 03-25-2013, 07:37 AM   #41
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Okay. I am not seeing any reason it should be higher than that. And I mean that both in the sense that I can't come up with one, and the sense that I don't think you've offered anything even suggesting that.

To reject the equivalence you've got to look at the comparison. And I don't think it'll come out the way you're implying. How much of the rib cage is full of lung, heart, and major arteries?
Less than the neck which is full of blood vessels, major nerves, airways and spinal column, and that leaves aside that the rib cage has a rib cage, and the fact that you're talking about the upper chest now not the whole torso, and the fact that there's normally a lot more muscle overlaying and between the ribs then there is in the neck, etc, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
I'm not sure that I'm parsing what you're saying here properly. It looks like you're saying that face and neck hits should be somewhere between torso and brain hits in terms of immediate effect... and they are.
OK, what i'm saying is they are too close to Torso.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
Except that the same damage-roll variability exists for every location.
That's my point. So the point that you can get superficial wounds on the face without getting anything serious so therefore the face isn't a particularly dangerous place to be stabbed, is irrelevant because it's true for all locations. And already modelled in the rules by low damage rolls vs. high ones, and the fact that modifiers that add to the damage roll are going to make such superficial wounds less likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
Identical damage hits will give very different results when applied to the torso, face, or neck. Hell, identical injury (HP loss) will give very different results when applied to those locations.
Yes I agree, that what I arguing for showing that difference between face/neck and torso to greater extent than is currently RAW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
HP loss reflects the "volume" of flesh-damage, immediate lethality, and the length of time it takes to heal from a wound. Pain, crippling, shock, bleeding, etc, are further effects, which are often times more important than the base HP loss! A 2-point cutting attack to the chest and a 1-point impaling attack to the vitals result in identical HP loss (3), but the vitals hit is both more likely to immediately incapacitate the target (That is, it actually has a chance to do so), and is potentially lethal in the long run, particularly at lower TLs. Identical amount of damaged flesh, very different results.
And that differentiation takes into account different locations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
(Assuming an average ST10, HT10 person) A 8-point blow to that leg will inflict 6 injury, putting them to the ground but still leaving them capable of acting, with a fair chance of being stunned.
No an 8 point sword wound is 12, leaving him negative just as the neck wound does. EDIT: sorry you're right it will only be 6pts because the leg can only take 6 points (unless you use extreme dismemberment). This is going to have effect on what I post below

However thinking about that what happens to the damage between 6 (to cripple the limb) and the 12 to remove it?

i.e wound to a 10HT arm, look at the progression

1). 1-5 wound, 1-5 HP removed from total (and mods to using the limb as per MA)
2). 6 HP wound. 6 HP removed from total (and limb crippled)
3). 7-11 HP wound, 6 HP removed form total (and limb crippled)
4). 12 HP wound, 6 HP removed from total (and limb removed)
5). 13+ HP wound, 6 HP removed from total (and limb removed)

There is no actually progression between stages 2 & 3? There's no progression between 4 & 5 either (unless you using extreme dismemberment) but that at least is explained basically as over penetration, stage 3 still has the weapon passing through the targets flesh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
That same 8-point blow to the neck deals 16 injury, almost certainly puts them down and leaves them stunned, very likely renders them immediately incapable of action (He effectively has to have passed three HT rolls, or one HT-5 roll and one HT roll, to get his next turn's action), will render them completely incapable of action within seconds, and is more likely to result in them bleeding to death (Both roll HT-5 every 30 seconds for bleeding, but the severed limb can be stopped with First Aid; the neck wound needs Surgery! Additionally, the neck wound risks bleeding out in only 2 minutes, while the leg wound will likely take almost half an hour). These are massively different levels of incapacitation and lethality here. Considering only immediate effects, the guy with the leg wound is impaired, but not likely to be incapacitated; The guy with the neck wound is most likely incapacitated immediately, and will absolutely be so within several seconds. Again, hitting the neck has considerably nastier immediate effect on the target.
Only why does the 8pt hit (12 pt wound) to the leg removes the leg and gives the instant mechanical disadvantage of that (i.e no leg) and yet you can't chop through a neck until (RAW) he finally dies? Necks tending to be smaller than legs.

Until bleeding kicks in the only immediate difference between these two wounds is that -5 mod on the knockdown roll. Now that's not insignificant, however if they manage to make there later HT roles to stay active, the guy with neck wound is actually better off RAW as he still has two legs! There being a one leg disadvantage you can apply but not a 'no head' disadvantage. Well I think I can imagine one, an extremely high value version of short life span!

EDIT: OK not all the above is true neck wound guy is worse off RAW. however the point about the same wound chopping a leg off but not chopping a head off stands.

The precedent is set to show it's possible to cut through stuff, (arms and legs) outside of HP loss and then ignored for necks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
For game purposes, they're dead. A remaining brain stem or reflex action moving your body about after your brain has been destroyed would not count as a character "living" or "surviving" in any game system I'm aware of.
No that's my point, that's not true RAW. As it stands it's stated that if you are killed by a cutting neck wound you have been decapitated. Now even decapitation isn't instant (as in same second) death, and we've heard the stories about aristocratic heads saying their prayers in the basket etc. However take that wound above. The HT10 chap left at -6 HP is surely going to bleed to death but its going to take him 2 mins, now so long as he can keep rolling his HT he can continue to fight with mods for less than 1/3hp but its not the going to be the last spasms of reflex (I'm picturing sleepy hollow here) I know muscle memory is a thing, but I think this might be taking it too far!

Now obviously a HT10 isn't going to make too many HT10 rolls in a row but its still a bit odd. Lets make him HT12 or even 14 it goes from fringe result to a bit silly.

So we either have one of two scenarios here,

1), Such a wound doesn't indicate decapitation even though it would indicate limb removal, i.e Necks in GURPS are for some reason extra resilient requiring you to be dead first

or

2).The only thing that impairs a headless man from fighting is shock (HT rolls) or blood loss (bleeding taking you to -HP and then failing a -1HT roll), not the mechanical fact that his brain (and eyes) are rolling around on the floor in his severed head.

Obviously this is a fringe situation, however what happens if we take my suggestion for adding an extra x1 on the wounding multiplier?

Suddenly that's not a 16 pt wound leaving him at -6 waiting for blood loss to become life threatening in 2 mins when he gets to -10

Now it's a 24 point wound already putting him at less than -HP and he's rolling to stay alive every second.

Otherwise you could just have a separate rules for cutting heads off just as you do for cutting legs and arms off.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-25-2013 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:15 AM   #42
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
There is a face location hit table in the upcoming loadouts book. It basically summarises the existing rules for face hits and all I did was put a random hit location number on each part. It seems pretty clear to me that a face hit is already worse than a torso hit. There is virtually no chance of not suffering from a secondary effect (even if it is just -5 to knockdown rolls) and the following doesn't even include the 1/6 chance of hitting the brain. I definitely would not support a damage multiplier for the face.

Face Hit Location Table
Helmets can have different attachments covering various parts of the face (see Face Protection, Low-Tech, p. 112). If the face is hit from the front, then roll 1d and consult the following to see which part of the face is hit.
1 – Jaw (-6 to hit): Any crushing hit gives an extra -1 to knockdown rolls. See Martial Arts, p. 137)
2 – Nose (-7 to hit): If damage is impaling, piercing, or tight-beam burning, then skull is hit. Any other damage that delivers HP/4 breaks nose. See Martial Arts, p. 137.
3 – Ear (-7 to hit): Any cutting attack that delivers over HP/2 removes the ear. See Martial Arts, p. 137.
4-5 – Cheek (-6 to hit)
6 – Eye (-9 to hit): Any armor surrounding the eyes (e.g. full helm, spectacles) will stop the attack. In order to bypass the armor, the eyes have to be targeted at -10 (see Harsh Realism – Armor Gaps, Low-Tech, p.101).

Note that unless specified, all face injuries get -5 to knockdown rolls. Critical hits use the Critical Head Blow Table. See Basic Set, p. B552 for more detail.
I think this is quite a good way to do it (just to be clear you basically replaced the existing face location by combining facial features locations given in MA).

So now you have a 1/3 chance of hitting the brain (with imp/p attacks) 1/6 of losing an ear, does it really take 6 pts to remove a 10HT man's ear (tough ear)? I don't have my books with me, does removing the ear soak the remaining damage (like limbs do) that makes ears quite erm.. ablative? Also I assume you get the same multipliers for wound types.

So if we average the actual multipliers from your table

Imp

1 x2
2 x4
3 x1 (assuming an ear counts as an arm or leg)*
4 x2
5 x2
6 x4

= x2.5 (mine would be x3, RAW x2) *x2 if it imp multiplier still applies, making thr average x2.66 (x3)


Cutting: yours is x1.5 mine x2.5 RAW x1.5
Crushing: yours is x1 mine x1 RAW x1
Corrosion: yours is x1.5 mine is x1.5 RAW x1.5

-Pen

1 x0.5
2 x4
3 x0.5**
4 x0.5
5 x0.5
6 x4

= x1.66 (x2), RAW x0.5, mine is x1.5 **now if it's a limb and Pen multipliers don't apply does that boost small piecing attacks to x1 (I'd rule not) EDIT: and it explicitly says it doesn't anyway.

Pen

1 x1
2 x4
3 x1
4 x1
5 x1
6 x4

= x2, RAW x1, mine is x2

+Pen

1 x1.5
2 x4
3 x1***
4 x1.5
5 x1.5
6 x4

= x2.25 (x2), RAW x1.5, mine is x2.5 *** doesn't actually change if the ear gets the x1.5 (it's x2.33 rather than x2.25)

Your's has more detail and greater differentiation between damage types, and the above comparison is also going to depend on the 'ear questions'. Mine's simpler. I like yours I have to say, and yours has the advantage of taking into account partial coverage from helmets (which was the initial point I guess).

EDIT: and its HP/4 to remove an ear (makes sense) however it also loses the rest of the damage, which doesn't*. By the same argument the eye and nose shot would loose the rest of their damages after destroying the eye and nose. However I think that's because the ear location write up in MA is there for longitudinal cutting blows that are specifically only tying to remove the ear. There the issue that the ear is at 90 degrees to those other body parts, but then that brings up another issue in that by actual physical location I'd ague te ear is on the head (skull) not face. and so on., and so on.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-26-2013 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:01 AM   #43
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Less than the neck which is full of blood vessels, major nerves, airways and spinal column, and that leaves aside that the rib cage has a rib cage, and the fact that you're talking about the upper chest now not the whole torso, and the fact that there's normally a lot more muscle overlaying and between the ribs then there is in the neck, etc, etc.
So, that post was talking about the face/skull, and you've just topic-switched me. Why do you think the face needs a higher chance of reaching the brain than the torso of reaching the vitals?

The neck, well, look. Bleeding. Any neck wound bleeds very very badly. Like, almost as badly as vitals. It doesn't provide a quick hard stop but it makes getting shot in he neck a huge deal anyway.

If you want to hard-stop someone with a neck wound, of course, you go cutting arteries, and get a wounding factor nearly the same as vitals and bleeding rules exactly the same, except that you can use your cutting damage so it's actually more damaging than a vitals stab in many cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
That's my point. So the point that you can get superficial wounds on the face without getting anything serious so therefore the face isn't a particularly dangerous place to be stabbed, is irrelevant because it's true for all locations. And already modelled in the rules by low damage rolls vs. high ones, and the fact that modifiers that add to the damage roll are going to make such superficial wounds less likely.
Is face-stabbing a thing? Because I'm not aware of stabbing people in the face being a way anyone remotely serious tries to kill people.
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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
No that's my point, that's not true RAW. As it stands it's stated that if you are killed by a cutting neck wound you have been decapitated. Now even decapitation isn't instant (as in same second) death, and we've heard the stories about aristocratic heads saying their prayers in the basket etc. However take that wound above. The HT10 chap left at -6 HP is surely going to bleed to death but its going to take him 2 mins, now so long as he can keep rolling his HT he can continue to fight with mods for less than 1/3hp but its not the going to be the last spasms of reflex (I'm picturing sleepy hollow here) I know muscle memory is a thing, but I think this might be taking it too far!
Uh, no, it's stated that the GM may rule that a death by cutting neck wound is a decapitation. That's...very different.

...Then you seem to be going on to argue that there's a problem with decapitated characters still fighting under the rules and I've got no idea what that's about since you know that the only rules for getting decapitated entail dying.

It's a bit of a general thing that 'instant death' in GURPS doesn't necessarily correspond to instant death or even instant incapacitation in reality, I think. Short of pulping your brain most wounds are going to need at least a few seconds for your body to go from general circulatory failure to fully non-functional.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Now it's a 24 point wound already putting him at less than -HP and he's rolling to stay alive every second.
Uh, no, rolling to stay alive every second is not a thing. Below -HP you roll to stay alive once. You roll to stay conscious every second.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:12 PM   #44
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
So, that post was talking about the face/skull, and you've just topic-switched me. Why do you think the face needs a higher chance of reaching the brain than the torso of reaching the vitals?
Sorry yes your right I thought you were talking about the neck, however to answer you question look at the MRI I posted, behind the lower half of the face it basically is the neck, and in the upper face it's going to be tough to miss the brain (nose and eye locations seem to support that). However this is why I wasn't arguing a straight x4 multiplier because its not just the brain behind the face, but there not much just meat either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
The neck, well, look. Bleeding. Any neck wound bleeds very very badly. Like, almost as badly as vitals. It doesn't provide a quick hard stop but it makes getting shot in he neck a huge deal anyway.

If you want to hard-stop someone with a neck wound, of course, you go cutting arteries, and get a wounding factor nearly the same as vitals and bleeding rules exactly the same, except that you can use your cutting damage so it's actually more damaging than a vitals stab in many cases.
Only as I said in my last post there not actually much in the neck that isn't pretty damn vital.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Is face-stabbing a thing? Because I'm not aware of stabbing people in the face being a way anyone remotely serious tries to kill people.
Really? The face is just the front of the head after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Uh, no, it's stated that the GM may rule that a death by cutting neck wound is a decapitation. That's...very different.
No I know, however put that in the context of those 8pt sword blows that sever legs.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
...Then you seem to be going on to argue that there's a problem with decapitated characters still fighting under the rules and I've got no idea what that's about since you know that the only rules for getting decapitated entail dying.
So what do we infer from that then? No attack to the neck can decapitate you unless it kills you outright. So that's what a minimum 10pt wound from a cutting weapon on a 10ST person to be possible to do that. Even then that's only a 50% chance for an average 10HT person, if he makes his HT roll no decapitation. Unlike the leg where not only does it require a lesser wound (8 pts) but it's automatic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
It's a bit of a general thing that 'instant death' in GURPS doesn't necessarily correspond to instant death or even instant incapacitation in reality, I think. Short of pulping your brain most wounds are going to need at least a few seconds for your body to go from general circulatory failure to fully non-functional.
I agree, however it that sounds rather like how long death by decapitation would take, i.e its not modelled by even the faster bleeding rules (which make sense you don't take multiples of 30 seconds to die without a head)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Uh, no, rolling to stay alive every second is not a thing. Below -HP you roll to stay alive once. You roll to stay conscious every second.

Good point, however also one that demonstrates that wounds that would be able to sever you leg, are somehow much less likley toi sever you head when they get you in the neck!

Lets get silly for second, assuming a 10St 10Ht target using extreme dismemberment I would need to roll 12 damage to get an 18 wound in order to chop of both his legs. (12 points needed to sever the first leg, 6 points deducted actually going though the first leg leaving 12 for the 2nd leg, severing that as well). Target actually only takes 12 HP damage but hey he's got no legs, and he's going to bleed out.

Lets do that to his neck.

So a blow that is strong enough to automatically remove both legs at once, is a 24 points wound, which takes him below -HP so he has to roll to live, but he has a 50% chance of doing so. So RAW a blow that automatically severs both legs only has a 50% chance of being a chance of a decapitation (but as you say death by neck wound isn't always a decapitation, even if decapitation is always a death blow).

If he has very fit or just +2HT the blow that took both his legs, only has a 1/4 chance of taking his head.

Now bleeding rules means he's dead later anyway of course, buts that's what kills the legless guy as well.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-25-2013 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:30 PM   #45
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Sorry yes your right I thought you were talking about the neck, however to answer you question look at the MRI I posted, behind the lower half of the face it basically is the neck, and in the upper face it's going to be tough to miss the brain (nose and eye locations seem to support that). However this is why I wasn't arguing a straight x4 multiplier because its not just the brain behind the face, but there not much just meat either.
I expect you own at least one human head. Please check for yourself as to how many ways you can draw a line that passes through the face without passing through the neck or cranium.

If you go through the face in that cross-section you're bound to hit the central nervous system someplace, but that's because it's a cross-section straight through the mid-line. The reality is rather less 2-dimensional.
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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Only as I said in my last post there not actually much in the neck that isn't pretty damn vital.
And there's nothing you can hit on the neck that doesn't produce pretty damn dire results so what is your point? Do you have some source about neck wounds being great for instant incapacitation or what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Really? The face is just the front of the head after all?
The Face is not just the front of the head, some of that is Skull (or Eye). And, frankly, stabbing people in the head in general isn't something I hear a lot about either. Except the occasional fictional commando-type whose favored kill is a stab to the brain which is absolutely a called shot to the skull at -7 or the eye at -9.

(Side note: possibly there should be a rule specifically for targeting the brain from below? Jabbing through the roof of the mouth and so forth bypasses most helmets.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I agree, however it that sounds rather like how long death by decapitation would take, i.e its not modelled by even the faster bleeding rules (which make sense you don't take multiples of 30 seconds to die without a head)
I am aware that that is not a thing GURPS covers. That is in fact what I was saying. In GURPS 'well, his aorta's someplace on the other side of the room so he's not going to move much longer' is just 'he's dead' rather than 'he's dead but maybe can take another turn or two if some rolls go well'. Barring houserules of course. (I've also seen 'extreme bleeding' rules proposals that actually model things like that turn-by-turn. I think Icelander had a set?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Good point, however also one that demonstrates that wounds that would be able to sever you leg, are somehow much less likley toi sever you head when they get you in the neck!

Lets get silly for second, assuming a 10St 10Ht target using extreme dismemberment I would need to roll 12 damage to get an 18 wound in order to chop of both his legs. (12 points needed to sever the first leg, 6 points deducted actually going though the first leg leaving 12 for the 2nd leg, severing that as well). Target actually only takes 12 HP damage but hey he's got no legs, and he's going to bleed out.

Lets do that to his neck.

So a blow that is strong enough to remove both legs at once, is a 24 points wound, which takes him below -HP so he has to roll to live, but he has a 50% chance of doing so. So RAW a blow that automatically severs both legs only has a 50% chance of being a chance of a decapitation (but as you say death by neck wound isn't always a decapitation, even if decapitation is always a death blow).

If he has very fit or just +2HT the blow that took both his legs, only has a 1/4 chance of taking his head.

Now bleeding rules means he's dead later anyway of course, buts that's what kills the legless guy as well.
There have been quite extensive threads about practical decapitation. I think one was linked upthread. I am not going to engage that topic.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:59 PM   #46
apoc527
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

FWIW, I always viewed the rules surrounding neck wounds as partly a game balance thing. On some level, using a sword to remove a leg shouldn't be THAT much harder than using the sword to cut through a neck, thus removing a head.

However, that would bypass GURPS's death rules--you only die instantly at -HTx5 or if you fail a death check. Being able to cause effective instant death by dealing HP or so of damage to the Neck hit location would break that model--badly. The only method that you would see to kill enemies with such a rule is to hack off heads.

Importantly, experience and history show that it's simply not that easy to decapitate someone in a combat situation. Thus, the rules are as they are.

I think Neck is plenty bad as it is, particularly using the MA rules for bleeding and neck wounds (MA 138--those are NOT fun for a setting without magical or extremely high tech healing).
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:27 PM   #47
Phoenix_Dragon
 
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Until bleeding kicks in the only immediate difference between these two wounds is that -5 mod on the knockdown roll. Now that's not insignificant, however if they manage to make there later HT roles to stay active, the guy with neck wound is actually better off RAW as he still has two legs!
No. I've gone through the comparison of events, but you're still leaving some out. There is an entire extra roll that you're leaving out, which has a big result on the chance of immediate incapacitation.

To be active the next turn, the guy who lost a leg simply has to make a single HT roll for knockdown to avoid being stunned. The guy with the neck wound must make both a HT-5 roll for knockdown (And if he fails to even make his normal HT, he's immediately unconscious), as well as a HT roll the next turn to not fall unconscious. He's much less likely to make those rolls and be active than the guy with the leg wound. Even if he does luck out and makes both those rolls, he's still rolling HT every single turn he's active to avoid passing out, something the leg-wound guy doesn't have to worry about. That's a lot of immediate effects you're trying to skip over.

Quote:
EDIT: OK not all the above is true neck wound guy is worse off RAW. however the point about the same wound chopping a leg off but not chopping a head off stands.
As pointed out, this is at least partially because GURPS avoids instant-kill effects, and partially because, while severed limbs are pretty well documented, the historic research folk around here haven't found many (If any) credible cases of decapitation in combat conditions. In addition, he amount of damage dealt to a neck to cut it off would surely be lethal if delivered to the brain, but the brain location still gives rolls to survive, which would make a very strange disconnect that cutting into the neck is more lethal than burying that sword in their brain.

If anything, I'd stay GURPS is too generous toward dismemberment, rather than too stingy toward decapitation.

Quote:
Now even decapitation isn't instant (as in same second) death, and we've heard the stories about aristocratic heads saying their prayers in the basket etc.
In GURPS terms, they were still dead. Same as how failing a consciousness roll might leave a character semi-conscious, writhing in pain, but unable to act.

Quote:
However take that wound above. The HT10 chap left at -6 HP is surely going to bleed to death but its going to take him 2 mins, now so long as he can keep rolling his HT he can continue to fight with mods for less than 1/3hp but its not the going to be the last spasms of reflex (I'm picturing sleepy hollow here) I know muscle memory is a thing, but I think this might be taking it too far!
And you're the one taking it too far by putting in the strawman argument of "muscle memory" and "spasms of reflex" as relevant to someone alive and conscious at -6 HP. Those might be relevant if he were decapitated, but by RAW, he isn't. If the rules did result in decapitation from that, then he'd be dead an not moving. None of the cases that anyone is proposing, including yourself, would result in the scenario you list here, which makes it look like a completely irrelevant cheap shot.

Quote:
Now it's a 24 point wound already putting him at less than -HP and he's rolling to stay alive every second.
You never have to roll every second to stay alive from any amount of HP loss.

The only immediate difference between a 16-point injury and a 24-point injury to the neck is that the 24-point injury has a single additional roll in order to act on the next turn, and the HT rolls to stay conscious are at -1 each turn. For a HT10 person, that means he went from having a 2.3% chance of acting next turn to a 0.9% chance. Chances of being immediately incapacitated (Unconscious or dead) are 75% for the 16-point injury and ~90% for the 24-point injury. And even if they somehow make it into the unlikely category of staying active through that wound, they still have a 50% or 62.5% chance of passing out each turn. This is compared to a 50% chance of the guy with the leg wound being able to act next turn, and only a 1.9% chance of him being immediately rendered unconscious. He's more than 20 times more likely to be able to act immediately than if he got hit in the neck with that 8-point attack, and almost 40 times more likely to not be rendered unconscious.

I think you are drastically under-valuing the effects the neck and face locations have by not considering these things. They are far closer to vitals and brain hits than to regular torso hits in terms of immediate incapacitation and impairment.

(For reference, an 8-point damage blow to the brain, dealing 24 injury, would leave a 0.7% chance of the target being able to act next turn, and a ~99% chance of being immediately unconscious or dead, much closer to the results for the neck wound (2.3% and 75%) than the leg wound (50% and 1.9%))

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
So if we average the actual multipliers from your table

= x2.5 (mine would be x3, RAW x2) *x2 if it imp multiplier still applies, making thr average x2.66 (x3)
RAW would be x2.33, as it has the 1-in-6 chance of hitting the brain already.

Quote:
-Pen

= x1.66 (x2), RAW x0.5, mine is x1.5 now if it's a limb and Pen multipliers don't apply does that boost small piecing attacks to x1 (I'd rule not)
The rules specify impaling, large piercing, and huge piercing, so of course not. In any case, RAW here would be roughly x1.1. Also, it's "piercing" (pi) not "penetrating" (pen). It took me a while to figure out you were talking about the piercing damage type and not something odd about penetrating DR.

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Pen

= x2, RAW x1, mine is x2
RAW x1.5.

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+Pen

= x2.25 (x2), RAW x1.5, mine is x2.5
RAW roughly x1.9.
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:31 AM   #48
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
To be active the next turn, the guy who lost a leg simply has to make a single HT roll for knockdown to avoid being stunned. The guy with the neck wound must make both a HT-5 roll for knockdown (And if he fails to even make his normal HT, he's immediately unconscious), as well as a HT roll the next turn to not fall unconscious. He's much less likely to make those rolls and be active than the guy with the leg wound. Even if he does luck out and makes both those rolls, he's still rolling HT every single turn he's active to avoid passing out, something the leg-wound guy doesn't have to worry about. That's a lot of immediate effects you're trying to skip over.
The neck is not the face or vitals. There's no additional penalty to knockdown rolls for a neck wound.
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:43 AM   #49
DanHoward
 
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

I can list plenty of accounts where people had their arms or legs amputated in combat. There was one skeleton recovered from Wisby that apparently had both legs amputated with one blow! However, I can't recall many incidents where someone was decapitated in battle. There are a few, but not as many as severed arms or legs.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:13 AM   #50
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I expect you own at least one human head. Please check for yourself as to how many ways you can draw a line that passes through the face without passing through the neck or cranium.
If it's anything less a very superficial hit (i.e low damage roll) or a hit that enters sideways into the face and exists from the other side of the face there's not many, especially if you're assuming an opponent standing in front of you. Now missile combat is slightly different but hand to hand, not so much.


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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
If you go through the face in that cross-section you're bound to hit the central nervous system someplace, but that's because it's a cross-section straight through the mid-line. The reality is rather less 2-dimensional.
The reality might be 3-d, however the reality is also there not really much of the neck (as it is behind the face) that isn't either blood vessel, air way, nervous system or brain stem. You seem to saying that such items are small targets and can be missed, your right in abstract however if you've hit that area (at the -5 or -7 mod making you point) chances are you'll hit one of them making my point).

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And there's nothing you can hit on the neck that doesn't produce pretty damn dire results so what is your point?
Only cutting and crushing has enhanced effects, bleeding is worse. Interestingly in MApg137 it actually says realistically bleeding out from arteries mean death in seconds, however then just relies on going -HP and failing a HT roll to model that.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Do you have some source about neck wounds being great for instant incapacitation or what?
I only said relative to the torso, I'm only arguing increasing the multiplier remember, a 2 pt light spear wound would still only be a 6 pts, no danger of instant death but a major wound however in terms of knock back etc


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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
The Face is not just the front of the head, some of that is Skull (or Eye).
Sorry, where in your body do you think your eye and skull is situated if it snot in you head?


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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
And, frankly, stabbing people in the head in general isn't something I hear a lot about either. Except the occasional fictional commando-type whose favored kill is a stab to the brain which is absolutely a called shot to the skull at -7 or the eye at -9.
Well you just answered your own question, it more difficult to do then just hitting the torso, however plenty of MA teach striking to the head, not many sports one teach neck strikes (wonder why), lots of neck holds though.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
(Side note: possibly there should be a rule specifically for targeting the brain from below? Jabbing through the roof of the mouth and so forth bypasses most helmets.)
I was thinking about that when looking at Dan Howard's combined table, however you already have eye straight to the brain and nose straight to the brain, mouth straight to the brain might start getting a bit much in terms of that table (which is limited to only having 6 positions). However I think my general increase to damage to the face from certain attacks would be one way to abstractly model the chances of that.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I am aware that that is not a thing GURPS covers. That is in fact what I was saying. In GURPS 'well, his aorta's someplace on the other side of the room so he's not going to move much longer' is just 'he's dead' rather than 'he's dead but maybe can take another turn or two if some rolls go well'. Barring houserules of course. (I've also seen 'extreme bleeding' rules proposals that actually model things like that turn-by-turn. I think Icelander had a set?)
No system can cover it all (or rather every combination of events), however my point was waiting multiples of 30 seconds to bleed out is not death by decapitation. (agin see MApg137) The point being for a system that has legs and arms flying off all over the place, it's strange it doesn't do the same for the head (via the neck)

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
There have been quite extensive threads about practical decapitation. I think one was linked upthread. I am not going to engage that topic.
fair enough, and I've read them, given the fact they had to start working on bracing modifiers etc, I think they made my point that necks seem to be unusually resistant to getting severed. Which would be fine, however legs and arms don't seem to be its the lack of consistency that puzzles me. Unless it is just a game balance thing.
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