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Old 03-24-2013, 06:31 AM   #31
NineDaysDead
 
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Critical head blow table, results 12 and 13, also potentially loosing an eye (See One Eye disadvantage) but that might just make you look dashing and mysterious.
Well the One Eye applies to the eye hit location like losing a nose or ear applies to the nose or ear hit location not the face hit location.
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Nothing more rigorous that I can find off the top of my head, but "attractiveness" is such a nebulous concept that it's hard to come up with hard-and-fast rules - it's also so heavily culture-bound that they'd never be generic.
But we aren't talking about "attractiveness" we're talking about scarring and mutilation. We aren't asking if a woman's beauty is improved by being Hollywood thin or 17th century Rubenesque, we're asking what effect does having half your teeth smashed out with a mace, or having one side of your face caved in (symmetry does seem to be a constant in beauty). Are there any cultures that find missing teeth and uncontrolled combat scars attractive?
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:23 AM   #32
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by NineDaysDead View Post
Are there any cultures that find missing teeth and uncontrolled combat scars attractive?
Combat scars, yes. At least in moderation - showing you fought in a real battle, but didn't completely get your ass handed to you ;)

I'm strongly reminded of German student dueling culture, among others.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:36 AM   #33
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Because its still the same 1 - 6 chance. The hidden target might differ but the chance is the same. Basically the rule is saying you are as likely to hit by luck an area that is particularly dangerous to hit in the torso as you are in the lower head from the front.
Okay. I am not seeing any reason it should be higher than that. And I mean that both in the sense that I can't come up with one, and the sense that I don't think you've offered anything even suggesting that.

To reject the equivalence you've got to look at the comparison. And I don't think it'll come out the way you're implying. How much of the rib cage is full of lung, heart, and major arteries?
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Old 03-24-2013, 04:09 PM   #34
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

There is a face location hit table in the upcoming loadouts book. It basically summarises the existing rules for face hits and all I did was put a random hit location number on each part. It seems pretty clear to me that a face hit is already worse than a torso hit. There is virtually no chance of not suffering from a secondary effect (even if it is just -5 to knockdown rolls) and the following doesn't even include the 1/6 chance of hitting the brain. I definitely would not support a damage multiplier for the face.

Face Hit Location Table
Helmets can have different attachments covering various parts of the face (see Face Protection, Low-Tech, p. 112). If the face is hit from the front, then roll 1d and consult the following to see which part of the face is hit.
1 – Jaw (-6 to hit): Any crushing hit gives an extra -1 to knockdown rolls. See Martial Arts, p. 137
2 – Nose (-7 to hit): If damage is impaling, piercing, or tight-beam burning, then skull is hit. Any other damage that delivers HP/4 breaks nose. See Martial Arts, p. 137.
3 – Ear (-7 to hit): Any cutting attack that delivers over HP/2 removes the ear. See Martial Arts, p. 137.
4-5 – Cheek (-6 to hit)
6 – Eye (-9 to hit): Any armor surrounding the eyes (e.g. full helm, spectacles) will stop the attack. In order to bypass the armor, the eyes have to be targeted at -10 (see Harsh Realism – Armor Gaps, Low-Tech, p.101).

Note that unless specified, all face injuries get -5 to knockdown rolls. Critical hits use the Critical Head Blow Table. See Basic Set, p. B552 for more detail.
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Last edited by DanHoward; 03-27-2013 at 04:37 AM.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:31 PM   #35
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
There is a face location hit table in the upcoming loadouts book. It basically summarises the existing rules for face hits and all I did was put a random hit location number on each part. It seems pretty clear to me that a face hit is already worse than a torso hit. There is virtually no chance of not suffering from a secondary effect (even if it is just -5 to knockdown rolls) and the following doesn't even include the 1/6 chance of hitting the brain. I definitely would not support a damage multiplier for the face.

Face Hit Location Table
Helmets can have different attachments covering various parts of the face (see Face Protection, Low-Tech, p. 112). If the face is hit from the front, then roll 1d and consult the following to see which part of the face is hit.
1 Jaw (-6 to hit): Any crushing hit gives an extra -1 to knockdown rolls. See Martial Arts, p. 137)
2 Nose (-7 to hit): If damage is impaling, piercing, or tight-beam burning, then skull is hit. Any other damage that delivers HP/4 breaks nose. See Martial Arts, p. 137.
3 Ear (-7 to hit): Any cutting attack that delivers over HP/2 removes the ear. See Martial Arts, p. 137.
4-5 Cheek (-6 to hit)
6 Eye (-9 to hit): Any armor surrounding the eyes (e.g. full helm, spectacles) will stop the attack. In order to bypass the armor, the eyes have to be targeted at -10 (see Harsh Realism Armor Gaps, Low-Tech, p.101).

Note that unless specified, all face injuries get -5 to knockdown rolls. Critical hits use the Critical Head Blow Table. See Basic Set, p. B552 for more detail.
Looks like it does include the 1/6 of hitting the skull.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:33 PM   #36
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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None of that seems to go against what I'm suggesting though. I'm not arguing that hits to these areas are instant death sentences, I'm arguing that they are intermediate in terms of immediate effect on a scale between torso and brain.
I'm not sure that I'm parsing what you're saying here properly. It looks like you're saying that face and neck hits should be somewhere between torso and brain hits in terms of immediate effect... and they are.

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I take you point about hits to the face either being superficial or really bad, however short of putting in some kind of unique threshold dependent rule I would argue that is modelled by low damage rolls compared to high damage rolls.
Except that the same damage-roll variability exists for every location. Identical damage hits will give very different results when applied to the torso, face, or neck. Hell, identical injury (HP loss) will give very different results when applied to those locations.

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Basically it comes down to this I think wounding multipliers on location should reflect a meat: immediately crippling good stuff, ratio.
HP loss reflects the "volume" of flesh-damage, immediate lethality, and the length of time it takes to heal from a wound. Pain, crippling, shock, bleeding, etc, are further effects, which are often times more important than the base HP loss! A 2-point cutting attack to the chest and a 1-point impaling attack to the vitals result in identical HP loss (3), but the vitals hit is both more likely to immediately incapacitate the target (That is, it actually has a chance to do so), and is potentially lethal in the long run, particularly at lower TLs. Identical amount of damaged flesh, very different results.

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If nothing else why can I severe the leg of a St10man with a 8 point blow from a sword, but the same blow to his neck has him fighting to stay concious while I wait for him to bleed out? And if he makes his HT roll he can still act more freely than if he's lost his leg!
(Assuming an average ST10, HT10 person) A 8-point blow to that leg will inflict 6 injury, putting them to the ground but still leaving them capable of acting, with a fair chance of being stunned. That same 8-point blow to the neck deals 16 injury, almost certainly puts them down and leaves them stunned, very likely renders them immediately incapable of action (He effectively has to have passed three HT rolls, or one HT-5 roll and one HT roll, to get his next turn's action), will render them completely incapable of action within seconds, and is more likely to result in them bleeding to death (Both roll HT-5 every 30 seconds for bleeding, but the severed limb can be stopped with First Aid; the neck wound needs Surgery! Additionally, the neck wound risks bleeding out in only 2 minutes, while the leg wound will likely take almost half an hour). These are massively different levels of incapacitation and lethality here. Considering only immediate effects, the guy with the leg wound is impaired, but not likely to be incapacitated; The guy with the neck wound is most likely incapacitated immediately, and will absolutely be so within several seconds. Again, hitting the neck has considerably nastier immediate effect on the target.

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headless chickens obviously having very high HT scores!
For game purposes, they're dead. A remaining brain stem or reflex action moving your body about after your brain has been destroyed would not count as a character "living" or "surviving" in any game system I'm aware of.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:40 PM   #37
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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For game purposes, they're dead. A remaining brain stem or reflex action moving your body about after your brain has been destroyed would not count as a character "living" or "surviving" in any game system I'm aware of.
Well, that's a little interesting because for game purposes, the original chicken died, but the headless-chicken entity, if it continues to be active, should probably be treated as a living character.
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Old 03-24-2013, 09:27 PM   #38
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Well, that's a little interesting because for game purposes, the original chicken died, but the headless-chicken entity, if it continues to be active, should probably be treated as a living character.
Well, if it continues to be active in a goal-oriented manner. Just moving around randomly isn't a character.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:59 AM   #39
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Well, if it continues to be active in a goal-oriented manner. Just moving around randomly isn't a character.
Can be, at least mechanics-wise.

If you need to render it as a ruled entity rather than a piece of scenery, I'd use standard character rules.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:21 AM   #40
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Looks like it does include the 1/6 of hitting the skull.
Good. I don't need to change anything after all. :)
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