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Old 03-23-2013, 04:09 AM   #11
Maz
 
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Basically a 3pt spear thrust is major wound to a St10 arm or leg rendering them useless, what do we think that look like in a neck or face.
Neck and face is already by the rules much more damaging to be hit in, even in combat-time.

Neck for instance, take more damage from both crushing and cutting than torso.
The only thing that has the same wounding multiplier is impaling and piercing. And that's because the torso is chuck-full of vulnerable vitals that are rather easy to hit by such attacks. Just as the neck it.
Arms and legs do not get a x2 multiplier from impaling exactly because they lack such vitals in them. (So your 3 pts impaling would only deal 3 pts against a leg, but 6 against neck or face).

In addition, using the blow-through rules, there is a max HP you can lose from a torso hit by impaling/piercing, which there are not for neck/face.

An optional rule you could consider is to say that for an impaling/piercing attack to "reach" the vitals in the torso they need to do more than 1/4 targets HP. So for a normal HP:10 person you would need to make a 3 dam attack in order to hit vitals (deliberately or on the 1 in 6 roll).


[edit] wow, ninjaed several times. That'll teach me to start a post then forget about it and come back later to finish]

Last edited by Maz; 03-23-2013 at 04:14 AM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 04:09 AM   #12
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by gjc8 View Post
No, it's not. Impaling has a x1 modifier to the extremities. A 6 point spear thrust would be required to cripple an arm or leg, and the same attack delivered to the face or neck would reduce someone from uninjured to less than 0 hp remaining.

Edit: Greater than HP/2 to cripple, not at least HP/2.
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Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
A 3-point spear thrust to the limb is only halfway to a major wound. The wounding multiplier for impaling, huge piercing, and large piercing is only 1x to the limbs. A stab that is strong enough to cripple a limb (6hp) will deal 12hp to the neck, which is not only going to incapacitate the target very quickly, but is going to bleed severely (HT-4 every 30 seconds, as opposed to HT-1 every minute for the arm wound). The difference is huge. A HT10 person is quite likely to survive the arm wound, and if he does bleed out, would take a minimum of about half an hour to do so (Possibly much longer). The later faces possible death in only 4 minutes, and is unlikely to survive without aid.
Sorry yes I had forgotten that about limbs wound mods, very good point.

However you then still have the basic premise that wounds to the neck and face are as immediately damaging as wounds to the torso?

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-23-2013 at 04:53 AM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 04:30 AM   #13
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Neck and face is already by the rules much more damaging to be hit in, even in combat-time.

Neck for instance, take more damage from both crushing and cutting than torso.
I wouldn't say an extra x0.5 is 'much more damaging'


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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
The only thing that has the same wounding multiplier is impaling and piercing. And that's because the torso is chuck-full of vulnerable vitals that are rather easy to hit by such attacks. Just as the neck it.
I'd argue the neck is more full of immediately vital stuff, and the torso offers more protection against its immediately vital stuff (ribs, muscle, tissue and greater spacing).


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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Arms and legs do not get a x2 multiplier from impaling exactly because they lack such vitals in them. (So your 3 pts impaling would only deal 3 pts against a leg, but 6 against neck or face).
which is fine for comparing the neck to an arm, not so important for comparing a neck to a torso.

Also given there is no crippling of a neck (with related penalties), that still basically means a neck can absorb as much damage from an impaling thrust as a torso or rather thr target can absorb as much damage from an impaling attack to the neck as he can from the torso (the theoretical upper limit of blow on the torso through not withstanding but see below).

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
In addition, using the blow-through rules, there is a max HP you can lose from a torso hit by impaling/piercing, which there are not for neck/face.
Which only really effect fire arms and really large Low Tech wounds, which my their effect it really a moot point. I.e 10 pt wounds as dealt with in GURPS are just fine, its the smaller but still significant ones that I'm on about.

Basically blow through is exactly that a powerful enough bullet to blow through has by definition not expended all it's energy in the body, the way GURPS calculates bullet damage is directly form bullet energy (which is fine) so it makes a lot of sense to make that point in the rules. However it's an effect that's more relevant to small projectiles moving very fast, and not so much for larger weapons moving more slowly (and again the fact that it's moot for the majority of these makes that point as well).


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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
An optional rule you could consider is to say that for an impaling/piercing attack to "reach" the vitals in the torso they need to do more than 1/4 targets HP. So for a normal HP:10 person you would need to make a 3 dam attack in order to hit vitals (deliberately or on the 1 in 6 roll).
Now that I like, it deals with getting past the 'padding' so to speak, however I think I'd keep torso as is and only have that for neck and face. That said I'm not sure how different that would be form just upping the multipliers in terms of the end result.


Any cheers of the replies, I'm off to start a roast dinner so if I may not post for a couple of hours!

EDIT: sorry just par boiling the potatoes so nipped back in

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-23-2013 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:29 AM   #14
Maz
 
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

Is see your points.
I would just be very wary of making those locations even more "high priority targets" as they are already really good. This is further enforced by the fact that specifically those two locations (neck and face) is the locations most often not armoured or if having armour, it's usually significantly lowers than torso, skull and limbs.

How about just upping the chance to hit an artery to 2/6 instead then? Its still a significant boost over the torso.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:45 AM   #15
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Is see your points.
Cheers

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I would just be very wary of making those locations even more "high priority targets" as they are already really good. This is further enforced by the fact that specifically those two locations (neck and face) is the locations most often not armoured or if having armour, it's usually significantly lowers than torso, skull and limbs.
Yeah this was my worry, (and partly why I justified upping the neck penalty to -6).

Another issue is that In GURPS as a roleplaying game if we are running characters who intend to do a lot of fighting then they tend to be above average fighters. Most PC's in a typical campaign probably rack up more direct combat time than the most grizzled RL veterans. So skill level tend to be quite high especially in comparisons to 'ordinary combatants, this and all the options for adjusting your chances to hit can mean that deliberate wounds to the neck and face probably end up occurring more often than 'RL' would otherwise suggest.

Now that's fine for heroes throat slashing mooks and spear carriers, but presents a bit more of problem when you want to give them a bit more of challenge.

However that said it would encourage more defensive fighting which I'd be all for (but tastes vary of course).

So all in in all I'd class the kind of adjustment I suggested as something akin to "harsh realism for getting stabbed in the face and neck" etc.


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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
How about just upping the chance to hit an artery to 2/6 instead then? Its still a significant boost over the torso.

That's a big boost, and could work well. although since its just a factor of one role and nothing else it could also be a bit disconnected and random.

I see it as there are five areas were GURPS shows the effects injury and trauma.

1). HP loss and major wound
2). Mechanical facility loss (a crippled arm can't be used)
3). Knockdown, stun and shock
4). Bleeding
5). Lotion specific adjustments to damage multipliers (although you could argue this is a subset of HP loss etc)

All of those has different effects over different time scales which I think is fine*, and each location incurs them in different ways which is also fine*. I guess ultimately I guess I just want to see more differentiation for these locations in more of these areas.
.
However there is some already so I guess its more a POV on weather there is enough rather than if there is any at all

*and when I say fine I mean another reason why I like GURPS so much! We couldn't even be having this conversation in most systems.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-23-2013 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:56 AM   #16
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

Tomsdad,

We get that you think it should do more damage, but nobody seems to agree. The good news is that you can house-rule it however you like if you're the GM. ;]

Anecdotal Evidence: One time at work, I had a customer get his throat cut with a broken bottle. It was a big, nasty-looking, ragged wound, and the guy was bleeding like a stuck pig. He was not, however, insta-killed, knocked unconscious, or even Stunned really - He was talking (trying to convince me that he was fine, actually) and capable of following instructions like, "Put pressure on it!" and he got out of the car under his own power when we reached the emergency room. Without surgery he was a dead man walking, though; my reward for saving his life was the opportunity to clean up about 2-3 quarts of blood, which exited his body in about 3-4 minutes.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:55 AM   #17
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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True, but also true of the torso (1 in 6 chance of vitals hit), like I said that 1 in 6 chance doesn't really demonstrate a the dangers if getting hit in the face when it pretty much applies in some form or another to most locations.
Most locations aren't your brain.


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I do use the bleeding rules, but even the faster stuff is not going ti have an effect on the time scale of most GURPS combat
Neither does the bleeding from the face in real life. Bleeding in general doesn't have a major effect on the timescale of most skirmishes, GURPS or otherwise - it's the longer term engagements on the scale of tens of minutes or hours where bleeding out usually is the resolution. Exception for major veinous or arterial bleeding, and even then you'd be amazed by some people sometimes.


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And I'n not arguing for instant kills (or x4 brain hits) for getting hit in the face, but are you saying you have no preference between getting hit in the torso or the face for all of those?
are you saying that wounds to the face and neck are when all else is equal just as dangerous as hits to the torso?
No, and I never implied as such. But when you set aside chance of brain injury (which you have) and bleeding (which you have) and disfiguring or long term injury (which you have) all you have left as a difference is that getting punched in the face hurts more - which GURPS already covers by making it terribly easy to get stun/knockdown on the face.

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Its not that much of a crumple zone really, given that its mainly space and thin bones.
.... That's the definition of a crumple zone, yes. Mostly empty space and some structural material to break or bend and thereby decelrate the impactor. In this case, the structural material is a pretty damn good bioceramic instead of steel, but breaking ceramics disipates a lot of energy.

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Also pretty much anything behind the face is as important as the the brain by dint of being vital to the function of the brain. I.e teh picture on pg 399 infers that anything form the eyeline up is x4 bad, but teh bottom half of your head is neutral ground.
That picture is from the front. The brain hit location is brain shaped in GURPS - the lower half of your brain is NOT your face. This is reflected in the rules in martial arts that note it's easier to hit the Brain from the back and harder to hit the face from the back (Because from that aspect, the brain is much bigger and the face is much smaller).

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And that's not going to be many of them. Also again they would be a superficial hit, think about how precise the difference is between a transverse slice through the face that stays in the 'crumple zone', and how small the difference is that would be needed to make it a lot worse.
You're laboring under the impression that that would somehow still put it in the face. As noted, that puts it in the brain.

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look at this side on MRI look at what's behind the soft palette
The brain, yes. You're getting repetitive - I suggest not asking someone the same question over and over again in the same post, because they can't respond to it at all until you hit the post button :)
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:15 AM   #18
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Most locations aren't your brain.
who said they were, As I've said I'm not arguing for a x4 multiplier, you know the one we have for the brain.

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Neither does the bleeding from the face in real life. Bleeding in general doesn't have a major effect on the timescale of most skirmishes, GURPS or otherwise - it's the longer term engagements on the scale of tens of minutes or hours where bleeding out usually is the resolution. Exception for major veinous or arterial bleeding, and even then you'd be amazed by some people sometimes.
Not sure how that addresses my point, which was that the advanced bleeding rules in MA didn't adequately model the effects of getting hit in these locations, just that they they modelled the fact you will bleed more form them. Not something I ever contested.

You get how if my question is 'I don't think the current rules for face and neck wounds reflect the immediate danger getting wounded often represents' the answer 'well it takes along time to bleed out even from areas were you bleed profusely from' isn't really that relevant.


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No, and I never implied as such.
Actually when you argue that the wounding multipliers should be the same as they are for torso (or not materially different) you kind of are.

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But when you set aside chance of brain injury (which you have) and bleeding (which you have)
No I haven't, what I've said is that if there are similar rules for the torso (which there are) then such rules don't distinguish between the two areas.


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and disfiguring or long term injury (which you have)
In a question about the immediate (or very short term) effects of such wounds I don't think that is particularly odd?

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all you have left as a difference is that getting punched in the face hurts more - which GURPS already covers by making it terribly easy to get stun/knockdown on the face.
That assumes that that is the only difference, which is exactly the point I'm making, I don't believe it is.

and that's fine for the face what about the neck.

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.... That's the definition of a crumple zone, yes. Mostly empty space and some structural material to break or bend and thereby decelrate the impactor. In this case, the structural material is a pretty damn good bioceramic instead of steel, but breaking ceramics disipates a lot of energy.
Hence why I'm not advocating a straight x4 multiplier in order to show there is some stuff between you and the brain stem etc. Also crumple zones (if you really want to keep the metaphor going) are good against blunt impact, not so much against impaling cutting ones

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That picture is from the front. The brain hit location is brain shaped in GURPS - the lower half of your brain is NOT your face. This is reflected in the rules in martial arts that note it's easier to hit the Brain from the back and harder to hit the face from the back (Because from that aspect, the brain is much bigger and the face is much smaller).
Look at the MRI I posted look at what's setting directly behind the soft palette. How well do you think you function with a sword in there? You seem very keen to make the brain the only target of value in the head with the rest just the same kind of general tissue we class the non vital parts of the torso as, brain's not worth much without a brain stem.

As to your point about front and back, that's fine but that's my point, from the front what would be a head hit from behind, becomes a face hit from the front, however the brain and all the rest of the vital bits and bobs doesn't actually change its position does it? It's still there isn't it? Put it this way say my head is inchs 8" from back to front at the point were my septum reaches my nose and I get shot by a bullet that penetrates say 6" (i.e not that much a low power hand gun, but certainly enough to go through the brain stem at that point) why would that bullet do 4x as much damage if it came from the back as it would if it came from the front?

Now you might argue I've set up a deliberately edge example to make my point there, but I had to make it edge because I had to avoid the counter "well you'll dead anyway" however that is my point hits to this area no matter the direction they come from a really dangerous, making the its a head shot from behind (x4) but a face one from the front (x1-1.5) moot.

What I would say is that because there is the intervening face form the front then it's not as bad as from behind, but I think 'not as bad' doesn't equate to 'same as the torso'. So I go back to my original point of making it bad but not x4 bad.


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You're laboring under the impression that that would somehow still put it in the face. As noted, that puts it in the brain.
And that's your argument for not making hits in that area worse?

Are you saying that a spear thrust deep enough into the face to catch the brain stem is in fact a head hit and not a face hit? But a lighter spear thrust that enters the face in the exactly the same place and from the same angle but doesn't reach the brain stem is classed a face hit (and thus +2 easier to do)?

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The brain, yes. You're getting repetitive - I suggest not asking someone the same question over and over again in the same post, because they can't respond to it at all until you hit the post button :)
So as above does a hit through the face suddenly become a head hit because it gets to the brain (or stem etc), or would it be fair to say hits that go through the face (not that hard as the face is pretty shallow and not particularly solid) are in fact pretty dangerous because of what they'll hit.

Basically your point seems to be more based more semantics than anatomy

As for Repetitive. You don't think constantly answering 'brain' to my post about why I think hits in this area particularly dangerous is not only repetitive but is also actually repeatedly making my point for me?

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-24-2013 at 03:15 AM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:23 AM   #19
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc View Post
Tomsdad,

We get that you think it should do more damage, but nobody seems to agree. The good news is that you can house-rule it however you like if you're the GM. ;]
True enough, but I'm interested in having the discussion about why people disagree, and then discussing the points they raise

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Anecdotal Evidence: One time at work, I had a customer get his throat cut with a broken bottle. It was a big, nasty-looking, ragged wound, and the guy was bleeding like a stuck pig. He was not, however, insta-killed, knocked unconscious, or even Stunned really - He was talking (trying to convince me that he was fine, actually) and capable of following instructions like, "Put pressure on it!" and he got out of the car under his own power when we reached the emergency room. Without surgery he was a dead man walking, though; my reward for saving his life was the opportunity to clean up about 2-3 quarts of blood, which exited his body in about 3-4 minutes.
But I wasn't advocating that every hit in the face and neck is an instant kill. All I'm saying is that that it is more dangerous to be stabbed, chopped* or shot in the face or neck with a spear, sword* or bullet than it is in the torso than just the extra bleeding rules in MA would suggest

I think your anecdote is very good proof that the bleeding rules in MA are well done, but not actually proof that apart from bleeding getting hit in the neck is analogous to getting hit in the torso.

I'm sure we could all find cases of hits to the head that didn't insta-kill, knock unconscious, or even Stun really, does that mean the rules in GURPS for head hits are too severe?

*although yes there a slight allowance for the fact this is bad for necks.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-23-2013 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:52 AM   #20
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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True enough, but I'm interested in having the discussion about why people disagree, and then discussing the points they raise
That's fair; I just felt that it beared saying, because a lot of "broken record" debaters on the internet actually think they're going to bring people around to their point of view just by repeating themselves.

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But I wasn't advocating that every hit in the face and neck is an instant kill. All I'm saying is that that it is more dangerous to be stabbed, chopped* or shot in the face or neck with a spear, sword* or bullet than it is in the torso than just the extra bleeding rules in MA would suggest
Yeah, that's where pretty much everybody seems to disagree. In real life, it is close-enough-to-jazz for exactly as much more dangerous to be stabbed, chopped, or shot in the face or neck as the extra bleeding rules in MA would suggest.

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I'm sure we could all find cases of hits to the head that didn't insta-kill, knock unconscious, or even Stun really, does that mean the rules in GURPS for head hits are too severe?
I did explicitly label it as anecdotal evidence (ie: worthless in the face of anything better). Got anything better?
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