03-23-2013, 03:09 AM | #11 | |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denmark
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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Neck for instance, take more damage from both crushing and cutting than torso. The only thing that has the same wounding multiplier is impaling and piercing. And that's because the torso is chuck-full of vulnerable vitals that are rather easy to hit by such attacks. Just as the neck it. Arms and legs do not get a x2 multiplier from impaling exactly because they lack such vitals in them. (So your 3 pts impaling would only deal 3 pts against a leg, but 6 against neck or face). In addition, using the blow-through rules, there is a max HP you can lose from a torso hit by impaling/piercing, which there are not for neck/face. An optional rule you could consider is to say that for an impaling/piercing attack to "reach" the vitals in the torso they need to do more than 1/4 targets HP. So for a normal HP:10 person you would need to make a 3 dam attack in order to hit vitals (deliberately or on the 1 in 6 roll). [edit] wow, ninjaed several times. That'll teach me to start a post then forget about it and come back later to finish] Last edited by Maz; 03-23-2013 at 03:14 AM. |
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03-23-2013, 03:09 AM | #12 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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However you then still have the basic premise that wounds to the neck and face are as immediately damaging as wounds to the torso? Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-23-2013 at 03:53 AM. |
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03-23-2013, 03:30 AM | #13 | |||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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Also given there is no crippling of a neck (with related penalties), that still basically means a neck can absorb as much damage from an impaling thrust as a torso or rather thr target can absorb as much damage from an impaling attack to the neck as he can from the torso (the theoretical upper limit of blow on the torso through not withstanding but see below). Quote:
Basically blow through is exactly that a powerful enough bullet to blow through has by definition not expended all it's energy in the body, the way GURPS calculates bullet damage is directly form bullet energy (which is fine) so it makes a lot of sense to make that point in the rules. However it's an effect that's more relevant to small projectiles moving very fast, and not so much for larger weapons moving more slowly (and again the fact that it's moot for the majority of these makes that point as well). Quote:
Any cheers of the replies, I'm off to start a roast dinner so if I may not post for a couple of hours! EDIT: sorry just par boiling the potatoes so nipped back in Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-23-2013 at 03:58 AM. |
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03-23-2013, 04:29 AM | #14 |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denmark
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
Is see your points.
I would just be very wary of making those locations even more "high priority targets" as they are already really good. This is further enforced by the fact that specifically those two locations (neck and face) is the locations most often not armoured or if having armour, it's usually significantly lowers than torso, skull and limbs. How about just upping the chance to hit an artery to 2/6 instead then? Its still a significant boost over the torso. |
03-23-2013, 05:45 AM | #15 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
Cheers
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Another issue is that In GURPS as a roleplaying game if we are running characters who intend to do a lot of fighting then they tend to be above average fighters. Most PC's in a typical campaign probably rack up more direct combat time than the most grizzled RL veterans. So skill level tend to be quite high especially in comparisons to 'ordinary combatants, this and all the options for adjusting your chances to hit can mean that deliberate wounds to the neck and face probably end up occurring more often than 'RL' would otherwise suggest. Now that's fine for heroes throat slashing mooks and spear carriers, but presents a bit more of problem when you want to give them a bit more of challenge. However that said it would encourage more defensive fighting which I'd be all for (but tastes vary of course). So all in in all I'd class the kind of adjustment I suggested as something akin to "harsh realism for getting stabbed in the face and neck" etc. Quote:
That's a big boost, and could work well. although since its just a factor of one role and nothing else it could also be a bit disconnected and random. I see it as there are five areas were GURPS shows the effects injury and trauma. 1). HP loss and major wound 2). Mechanical facility loss (a crippled arm can't be used) 3). Knockdown, stun and shock 4). Bleeding 5). Lotion specific adjustments to damage multipliers (although you could argue this is a subset of HP loss etc) All of those has different effects over different time scales which I think is fine*, and each location incurs them in different ways which is also fine*. I guess ultimately I guess I just want to see more differentiation for these locations in more of these areas. . However there is some already so I guess its more a POV on weather there is enough rather than if there is any at all *and when I say fine I mean another reason why I like GURPS so much! We couldn't even be having this conversation in most systems. Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-23-2013 at 05:51 AM. |
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03-23-2013, 05:56 AM | #16 |
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: One Mile Up
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
Tomsdad,
We get that you think it should do more damage, but nobody seems to agree. The good news is that you can house-rule it however you like if you're the GM. ;] Anecdotal Evidence: One time at work, I had a customer get his throat cut with a broken bottle. It was a big, nasty-looking, ragged wound, and the guy was bleeding like a stuck pig. He was not, however, insta-killed, knocked unconscious, or even Stunned really - He was talking (trying to convince me that he was fine, actually) and capable of following instructions like, "Put pressure on it!" and he got out of the car under his own power when we reached the emergency room. Without surgery he was a dead man walking, though; my reward for saving his life was the opportunity to clean up about 2-3 quarts of blood, which exited his body in about 3-4 minutes. |
03-23-2013, 06:55 AM | #17 | |||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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03-23-2013, 09:15 AM | #18 | |||||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
who said they were, As I've said I'm not arguing for a x4 multiplier, you know the one we have for the brain.
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You get how if my question is 'I don't think the current rules for face and neck wounds reflect the immediate danger getting wounded often represents' the answer 'well it takes along time to bleed out even from areas were you bleed profusely from' isn't really that relevant. Actually when you argue that the wounding multipliers should be the same as they are for torso (or not materially different) you kind of are. Quote:
In a question about the immediate (or very short term) effects of such wounds I don't think that is particularly odd? Quote:
and that's fine for the face what about the neck. Quote:
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As to your point about front and back, that's fine but that's my point, from the front what would be a head hit from behind, becomes a face hit from the front, however the brain and all the rest of the vital bits and bobs doesn't actually change its position does it? It's still there isn't it? Put it this way say my head is inchs 8" from back to front at the point were my septum reaches my nose and I get shot by a bullet that penetrates say 6" (i.e not that much a low power hand gun, but certainly enough to go through the brain stem at that point) why would that bullet do 4x as much damage if it came from the back as it would if it came from the front? Now you might argue I've set up a deliberately edge example to make my point there, but I had to make it edge because I had to avoid the counter "well you'll dead anyway" however that is my point hits to this area no matter the direction they come from a really dangerous, making the its a head shot from behind (x4) but a face one from the front (x1-1.5) moot. What I would say is that because there is the intervening face form the front then it's not as bad as from behind, but I think 'not as bad' doesn't equate to 'same as the torso'. So I go back to my original point of making it bad but not x4 bad. Quote:
Are you saying that a spear thrust deep enough into the face to catch the brain stem is in fact a head hit and not a face hit? But a lighter spear thrust that enters the face in the exactly the same place and from the same angle but doesn't reach the brain stem is classed a face hit (and thus +2 easier to do)? Quote:
Basically your point seems to be more based more semantics than anatomy As for Repetitive. You don't think constantly answering 'brain' to my post about why I think hits in this area particularly dangerous is not only repetitive but is also actually repeatedly making my point for me? Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-24-2013 at 02:15 AM. |
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03-23-2013, 09:23 AM | #19 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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I think your anecdote is very good proof that the bleeding rules in MA are well done, but not actually proof that apart from bleeding getting hit in the neck is analogous to getting hit in the torso. I'm sure we could all find cases of hits to the head that didn't insta-kill, knock unconscious, or even Stun really, does that mean the rules in GURPS for head hits are too severe? *although yes there a slight allowance for the fact this is bad for necks. Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-23-2013 at 09:54 AM. |
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03-23-2013, 09:52 AM | #20 | ||
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: One Mile Up
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Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier
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I did explicitly label it as anecdotal evidence (ie: worthless in the face of anything better). Got anything better? |
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hit location, hit locations |
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