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Old 02-09-2013, 02:24 AM   #31
ShdwWolf7
 
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

I've been reading this thread, mostly trying to understand what's being said...
Still, Tuk make good point. (ug, grunt) To me, a slam could be succesfull even if you don't knock the enemy down, but off ballance enough that his arms are off-line, i.e. not in the optimum position to defend, allowing you an opening to stab him with the pointy end. :)
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Old 02-09-2013, 05:30 AM   #32
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

Two things I thought about...

Slow slam...

In my humble opinion, a slow slam doesn't exist. If you push someone slowly, you don't make him any damage and have no chance to make him fall down. At best, you just push him slowly and softly backward.

To slam someone, you have to knock him as fast as you can, even if you don't move as far as you can.

So, to my mind, a 1 yard slam requires full speed, even if the distance between the slamer and his victim is only 1 yard. That is why the best way to handle slam is to always use the maximum speed, as Trooper 6 wrote it.


Football slams...

These, in my opinion, are not just slams. Of course they sometimes look like mere slams. But there is more in them than just that: there is a specific manner to knock the adversary where it can best unbalance him. So it is more a Sumo-wrestling like technique than just a slam...

Likewise, if a character doesn't content himself to slam his foe but uses more precise combat techniques (like the shield techniques we can see in the movie 300, for instance), I wouldn't use slam rules but Takedown ones.
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:28 AM   #33
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

In GURPS, a slam is a strike. It's used as a term of art, and whatever we'd like it to mean, the formal definition is on p. B371.

For (NA) Football, I would probably use one or more of:

Sumo Wrestling grapple + Takedown
Sumo Wrestling Sweep

These will knock a foe down.

Sumo Wrestling shove to knock a foe away, likely away and to the side for the offense.

You may, of course use other skills for some of this, but if your goal is not to do damage, you are using an inefficient method with slam.

Thinking about the rules, most of the action on the line is more properly attempts at either grapple/takedown or shove.
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:22 AM   #34
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

Some times ago my group faced this problem, because we have had a couple of odd situations in play.

The first attempt to fix was the following:

basic slam damage = (swing-2) + speed
damage was a third of the total
damage was multiplied by 1.5 for the purpose of knockback calculation

The slam possibly ends up in a fall down by regular rules on knockback.

After some attempt, it seemed to us that this formula gives results far from perfection. But I think that the idea of basing the contest on sw damage can be good, overly with fixed damage tables.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:07 AM   #35
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

The only time I've really found slams to be a problem is when damage is low, particularly when it's less than 1d on at least one side. At that point, the variability is so high that you can get ridiculous results fairly often.

A solution I came up with (But still haven't had the opportunity to field-test) was to change the damage scale to deci-scale. Rather than dividing the formula by 100, divide it by 10, instead, with damage-per-die modifiers (AoA, Weapon Master, etc) coming after that. If dividing by 10 still leaves one at less than a full die, you can just skip the dividing entirely and go with centi-scale. Use this total to figure knockdown in the collision rules (Not knockback, just the slam knockdown chance), then divide by 10 (Or 100 for centi-scale) and round down to find actual damage inflicted.

This way, if you have someone doing 0.1 dice of damage and the other doing 0.3 dice of damage, under the previous system, the later is going to routinely average three times the damage and be much more likely to knock their opponent down, rather than having it be largely random.

As an additional tweak, I also rule that you can't take more damage in a slam than you would in an identical-speed collision with a hard object, before modifiers like AoA.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:12 AM   #36
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

For some time my house rule to address this issue has been to eliminate the slam option and replace it with an option for AoA called rush.

Rush only applies to AoA. It lets you take your full move, gives +1 damage/3 yards moved, doesn't skill cap at 9, and gives +4 to takedown rolls made the same second. Defenses against a rush are at+2.

A tackle becomes AoA double, rush, grab+sacrifice throw. Rush assisted shoves are also common. (Side note: I let sacrifice throw default to dx or best grappling skill.)

It's far from perfect, but it's what I've been doing.
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Old 02-09-2013, 01:59 PM   #37
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
In GURPS, a slam is a strike. It's used as a term of art, and whatever we'd like it to mean, the formal definition is on p. B371.
Yes: "You can deliberately collide with an opponent. This requires an Attack, All-Out Attack, or Move and Attack maneuver. Roll against DX, Brawling, or Sumo Wrestling to hit. Note that the -4 to hit and the effective 9 Skill cap for a Move and Attack do not apply to slams." The later-on addendum of Shield Rush to the same rules adds Shield as a skill to roll against for success with a slam.

The Sumo wrestler and the Roman legionary are RAW the exemplars of the rule; yet in neither case are they trying to do damage with the Slam/Shield Rush. The rikishi is really attempting to throw his opponent off balance in order to herd him out of the ring or to cause his hand (or knee, or other body part) to touch the ground. The legionary is attempting to pin his opponent's shield arm to his body, in order to facilitate a quick killing strike to the vitals--gladius-to-spleen--causing the opponent to bleed out. In the modern equivalent--SWAT crowd control--the shield is there for herding and pushing, as well as the cool sound it makes when the baton hits it. Both the Slam and the Shield Rush are very clearly skill moves, only tangentially related to ST, and neither is intended to cause, or is dependent upon, damage to the target.

The implied linking between Slam and (NA) football tackle (see "flying tackle" as a Slam technique, pg B372) is also invalid, as a properly executed tackle, flying or otherwise, is based on leverage points, skill, and frequently deceptive tactics (shifting centres of gravity, etc.), with ST being, at best, a modifier to either attack or defence. The whole point is that you are trying to put them off-balance, negating their ST. And rather than causing damage, the only point in which direct damage is done to an individual with a (NA) football tackle is when they did it wrong.

Quote:
For (NA) Football, I would probably use one or more of:

Sumo Wrestling grapple + Takedown
Sumo Wrestling Sweep

These will knock a foe down.

Sumo Wrestling shove to knock a foe away, likely away and to the side for the offense.
I like the idea that the primary skill involved in a tackle is Sumo Wrestling. It is clearly appropriate; one would, I assume, have a separate Sport:NA Football skill to take care of the differences between the rules of play.

It doesn't change the fact, though, that if Slam doesn't apply to Sumo wrestling, it doesn't apply to (NA) football, and it doesn't apply to Shield Rush tactics, be they Roman military or modern police crowd control, then what does it apply to?

If, however, we remove the idea of doing damage as a direct intent of the Slam/Shield Rush, then it can be a successful tactic, when used properly, in all the stated, and implied, situations.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:01 PM   #38
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

My house rule on Slams is:

Quote:
Your Slam damage is thrust/crush with double knockback. For every three yards of velocity (or difference in velocity) apply +0.5/die to your damage. If the slammed object fails to suffer knockback (damage was less than its ST-2) the slammer takes the same damage inflicted (at normal knockback).
Shield rush, Sumo, and AoA all work as expected.

Halflings don't tackle elephants any more, they bounce off.

I use a version of this for all collisions and falls. I'm still playing with the velocity divisor and per die multiplier but these values come pretty close to RAW collisions and have play tested well.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:38 PM   #39
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philomath View Post
My house rule on Slams is:



Shield rush, Sumo, and AoA all work as expected.

Halflings don't tackle elephants any more, they bounce off.

I use a version of this for all collisions and falls. I'm still playing with the velocity divisor and per die multiplier but these values come pretty close to RAW collisions and have play tested well.
My biggest problem with this is how rarely it results in anyone falling down. Doesn't seem right (gut feeling only, mind you). A DX, Acrobatics, or Judo roll, rarely penalized because Knockback isn't often going to be more than 1 hex, even at double thrust damage. IMC, this will usually be a roll of 12 or better. I have been looking for an alternative Slam mechanic, because I really don't like the way the current mechanic is affected by things that give a bonus to the damage.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:00 PM   #40
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazander View Post
My biggest problem with this is how rarely it results in anyone falling down. Doesn't seem right (gut feeling only, mind you). A DX, Acrobatics, or Judo roll, rarely penalized because Knockback isn't often going to be more than 1 hex, even at double thrust damage. IMC, this will usually be a roll of 12 or better. I have been looking for an alternative Slam mechanic, because I really don't like the way the current mechanic is affected by things that give a bonus to the damage.
You've just been hit for damage, so all of these rolls are penalized for shock, are they not? If you want more falling down, apply the damage rolled as a penalty to the roll to keep your feet. You can cap it at -4 (the max shock penalty) or not to taste.
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