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Old 02-06-2013, 03:04 PM   #1
Bibiribobiri
 
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Default Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

As commented on Thread "Shield Slam rules in GURPS 4e - problems?" the Slam rules seems broken:

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Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
The debate about how "effective speed for slams" should be calculated seems like a pointless exercise, since you'll end up doing either 1d-2 or 1d-1 damage anyway... extra detail is useless when the approximation is so rough.

The problem of slam rules isn't the velocity, it's that huge differences of ST and speed will result in tiny differences of damage.
The huge bonuses from AoA, shield slam and so on, only worsen the situation because they make ST almost meaningless: for example a ST 7 boy slamming with a large shield will probably knock down a ST 30 giant (1d vs 1d-1 if the collision speed is 3 y/s); if the boy were all-out attacking even a ST 49, thirty-feet tall monster would be in trouble (1d+2 vs 1d at 3 y/s).

Also, once you get in the "minimum damage zone" (HP x velocity less than 25), if your foe is stronger than you, the slower you slam, the better off you are, because you'll always do at least 1d-3, and reducing speed you will reduce your enemy's damage. In a collision at 1 y/s the aforementioned giant will need HP 150 or more to deal more slam damage than a shield-bearing kid...

Thinking of it the slam damage is probably the worst Murphy Rule of 4e!
Does anyone propose some house rules for a shield rush that are more realistic and ST sensitive (for an Fantasy game)?
How would the new shield rush deal with defenses or the wait manouver?
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Old 02-06-2013, 04:23 PM   #2
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

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Originally Posted by Bibiribobiri View Post
Does anyone propose some house rules for a shield rush that are more realistic and ST sensitive (for an Fantasy game)?
How would the new shield rush deal with defenses or the wait manouver?
The first thing I'd do is make the knockdown chance based on damage relative to the subjects HP or Mass, rather than comparing the two damage totals. That removes the current situation where it's actually beneficial to make slower slams, since that magnifies the effects of damage-adds like Shields or All-Out Attack. It would instead be more like Knockback, for which it's always a good thing to be doing more damage. Also, because both the damage you deal and take are based on the speed of impact, with faster collisions it would be more likely for both parties to fall down.

For exact numbers, you'll need to do some playtesting. Off the top of my head, triggering an unmodified DX roll for a slam dealing 1/3 HP damage feels appropriate, with a bonus / penalty for lower / higher relative damage.

Last edited by vierasmarius; 02-06-2013 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:05 PM   #3
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
For exact numbers, you'll need to do some playtesting. Off the top of my head, triggering an unmodified DX roll for a slam dealing 1/3 HP damage feels appropriate, with a bonus / penalty for lower / higher relative damage.
That seems high, as it implies that anyone bowled over three times will be rolling to stay conscious, assuming no DR. Given how many times an NFL quarterback can get knocked down in a game, I don't think pads provide enough DR to keep 'em above zero HP after a typical game, if that's the rule.

I usually just revert to 3e rules - quick contest of ST, with modifiers - when a slam comes up in my current game. That's always semi-normal human vs. the same, though.
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:12 PM   #4
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

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Originally Posted by coyote6 View Post
That seems high, as it implies that anyone bowled over three times will be rolling to stay conscious, assuming no DR. Given how many times an NFL quarterback can get knocked down in a game, I don't think pads provide enough DR to keep 'em above zero HP after a typical game, if that's the rule.
Good point. I had in mind the Knockback rules, where 8 points of damage, or 4 with double-knockback (such as a Shove), is enough to push an average human 1 yard. Hence 1/3 HP, or 4 damage (rounding up) to trigger a knockdown roll on an average person. But you're right that that's probably too high. What would you consider the minimum slam damage to potentially knock someone down? 1/10 of HP?
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:15 PM   #5
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

I submit that NFL players are good candidates for Hard to Subdue.
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

I've long thought some of this kind of damage would benefit by being reduced by a HT-based skill roll of some kind. So HT-based Games (American Football) roll might mitigate some level of this damage, based on MoS.
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I've long thought some of this kind of damage would benefit by being reduced by a HT-based skill roll of some kind. So HT-based Games (American Football) roll might mitigate some level of this damage, based on MoS.
Perhaps allow the Roll with Blow technique to default to HT-based Games in this case?
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:36 PM   #8
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
Perhaps allow the Roll with Blow technique to default to HT-based Games in this case?
That smells like it's the right direction. I'll check the rule.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

Technically, Roll with Blow is cinematic, so you might need the Unusual Training perk for realistic games.

The double knockback bit is probably a little much in some cases, at least for realistic games. Though if you reskin egregious amounts of knockback as "scrambles back before being hit and falling down", it might work for football QBs. :)

But even high school players get knocked down, too, mostly don't seem to require heavy medical aid after every game, and ought not to have many points in skills, techniques, perks, etc. Hence, I wouldn't focus on fixing it solely for football players - they were just a handy (if slightly sad - 49ers fan, here) example of people who get knocked down a lot, without suffering that much damage.

Maybe just use the effects of roll with blow: half damage, but check for falling down if rolled damage > 1/3 HP.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:03 PM   #10
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

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Originally Posted by coyote6 View Post
But even high school players get knocked down, too, mostly don't seem to require heavy medical aid after every game, and ought not to have many points in skills, techniques, perks, etc.
We hope the DR from the pads protects them...
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