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Old 11-17-2013, 08:17 PM   #41
ErhnamDJ
 
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Originally Posted by fifiste View Post
one idea if it seems that people tend to hit eachotehr at random brawls better with fist that with bottles or knives or lead pipes is that most of the population (even those int he drunken brawl) will have reluctant killer which will trigger on wielding such items but not on punching flailing which is at least "seen" as harmless enough activity.
I think I like this explanation. Most people have Pacifism (Reluctant Killer) [-5] and Minor Delusion (My Unarmed Attacks Won't Kill) [-1].

If I really wanted to kill someone, I have a hard time imagining myself being better--and substantially so--at kicking them in the chest than hitting them anywhere with a baseball bat.
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Old 11-18-2013, 02:23 AM   #42
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
I would call 7 vs 9 "not much less dangerous". One hit will be a Major Wound, and three hits will trigger a Death Check. On average the knife will require slightly more hits to incapacitate or kill, with the randomness of rolls. But they're definitely close in terms of lethality.
Don't forget that a death check doesn't necessarily mean death. Of course, to trigger the first death check, the knife will need about the same number of hits than the 9mm (3). But it gives an average man one chance in two to survive. So, if the character really wants to kill his foe, the 9mm will be a better choice.

HP reach... / Knife / 9mm / Chance of surviving*
-10 / 3 hits / 3 hits / 1 in 2
-20 / 5 hits / 4 hits / 1 in 4
-30 / 6 hits / 5 hits / 1 in 8
-40 / 8 hits / 6 hits / 1 in 16
-50 / 9 hits / 7 hits / Automatic death

*For an average HT 10 character.

And yes, it may not sound very different... But what would I prefer? One 9mm bullet in the stomach or one large knife blow as strongly as my foe can (all out-attack)? Both seem about as dangerous for my life (even if they arent really).

Finally, add to that the possibility of reaching vitals and brain (as you noticed it), and the fact the least armor (like a mere leather jacket or anorack, with DR1 for instance) will considerably lower the knife blow while it won't really lower the 9mm danger and there is now a huge difference between the large knife and the gun.
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Old 11-18-2013, 02:30 AM   #43
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Old 11-18-2013, 02:35 AM   #44
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
I've seen it come up often enough, particularly in horror games.

DM: "The cultist pulls the knife from his belt and stares at you intently. What do you do?"

Player 1: "I... grab the lead pipe and hold it up ready to fight!"

Player 2: "Big mistake."
One of GURPS secret rules is that you can still treat that pipe like a fist load or whatever and do thr cr damage with it at DX. This could have been made clearer.
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Old 11-18-2013, 02:45 AM   #45
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
I think I like this explanation. Most people have Pacifism (Reluctant Killer) [-5] and Minor Delusion (My Unarmed Attacks Won't Kill) [-1].
I fully do agree!

And I would like to add that since most people don't want to kill their foe, they don't hit as strongly as they can... They even stop striking as soon as the foe falls down or even as soon as he begins to stagger with a broken nose or rib.

So, in game terms, all-out attacks (strong) are rare... Which gives 14 ordinary punches or 8 ordinary kicks to risk killing an average guy, supposing that the attacker goes on striking his knocked-out foe...

Thus, most often, modern GURPS bare handed fights will end with a more or less conscious victim sent to hospital... Exactly as in reality.

This perfectly explain the struck by/against homicide/injury rate=0.00009. When someone really wants to kill someone, he usually uses a weapon!
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:08 AM   #46
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
One of GURPS secret rules is that you can still treat that pipe like a fist load or whatever and do thr cr damage with it at DX. This could have been made clearer.
Where is that rule? I don't like that rule, anyway. Why is it better to hit someone with a sword as a fist load instead of with the blade? "I pull out my father's katana and prepare to hit the ninja with it as a fist load," isn't something one of my players would ever say, and it's really weird that the rules make that better than stabbing or slicing with the blade.

It seems to me like the intent is to stealthily give the characters a means of fighting, so they'll have it even if they don't take it. If unarmed fighting was the same default level as all the other combat skills, then you would often end up with characters who have no effective means of fighting. I don't like forcing unarmed fighting ability on them, since I want players to get to make exactly the sorts of characters they want. If they don't want their character to be able to fight, then I say we should allow them to not be able to fight. But I do a lot of horror games, so I often find myself butting up against the Hollywood action movie assumptions the GURPS rules make. Making everyone at least a little proficient at fighting doesn't fit the game I'm usually going for.
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:16 AM   #47
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
Where is that rule?
You can punch people with a fist load at DX and it adds +2 to normal punching damage (raising it to thr).

Quote:
Why is it better to hit someone with a sword as a fist load instead of with the blade?
thr cr at Reach C is better than sw+ cu at reach 1+? How's that?
Quote:
"I pull out my father's katana and prepare to hit the ninja with it as a fist load," isn't something one of my players would ever say, and it's really weird that the rules make that better than stabbing or slicing with the blade.
A sword would probably have to be used to pummel strike instead or something. I meant that something like a short lead pipe that can be gripped in the middle like a Yawara could be used as a fist load. Not that any random weapon works like that.

Quote:
It seems to me like the intent is to stealthily give the characters a means of fighting, so they'll have it even if they don't take it. If unarmed fighting was the same default level as all the other combat skills, then you would often end up with characters who have no effective means of fighting.
People (and other animals) do have instinctive methods of self-defense.
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:20 AM   #48
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
You can punch people with a fist load at DX and it adds +2 to normal punching damage (raising it to thr).
Where is that rule?

Quote:
thr cr at Reach C is better than sw cu at reach 1? How's that?
+5 to relative skill.

If you have no combat skill and DX 10, you use the sword at skill 5, but you punch with the fist load at skill 10. Which of those would you do if you got into a fight with a ninja while holding a sword?

Quote:
People (and other animals) do have instinctive methods of self-defense.
Sure, and how much better are their instinctive methods of self-defense with a fist load than their instinctive methods of self-defense with a katana, club, knife, or spear? I don't have any combat training, but I'd pick any of those weapons over trying to fight off a ninja barehanded. Unless I was a character in GURPS, in which case I wouldn't want to bother with the weapon.
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:25 AM   #49
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

The only weird thing with fistloads is handguns-as-fistloads (Pistol whipping, High-Tech 93). Average handgun is better than blackjack, large handguns are even better. So in GURPS the best melee weapon for untrained fighter is a handgun.
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:51 AM   #50
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

I'm thinking of removing the - you can hit people at DX with you use brawling at default (easy skill = DX -4), it'll mean that untrained people will have to throw telegraphic or all-out punches which seems appropriate.
And they won't be so surprisingly better at punching vs. swinging a small stick.

Also it'll mean that grabbing a hatchet or lead pipe is not crippling yourself for an average untrained guy/gal trying to defend themselves from ninjas/zombies/psycho killers.
Which does seem to me to goes against any conventional wisdom and definitely against the logic of many stories I'd like to tell.
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