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Old 11-17-2013, 03:37 AM   #21
fifiste
 
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

For me it is puzzling how you immediately get so much worse at hitting stuff at the very moment you take a short stick in your hand.
From my limited experience there really is no such thing.
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Old 11-17-2013, 06:35 AM   #22
TheOneRonin
 
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Originally Posted by fifiste View Post
For me it is puzzling how you immediately get so much worse at hitting stuff at the very moment you take a short stick in your hand.
From my limited experience there really is no such thing.
Having been training and training others in various versions of Escrima (Pekiti Tersia Kali and Modern Arnis)for quite a while, I'll tell you that is 100% how it works in real life.

There is something about taking a trained empty hand martial artist and adding reach and leverage that completely discombobulates them.

In fact it's a large reason why most of the escrima based arts teach the cane first and empty hand second. It's FAR easier to transition in that direction than it is to go from empty hand to using a weapon.

For my school, most of the students have come from other arts. We have Aikido, Hapkido, Wing Chun, Isshinryu Karate, Krav Maga, BJJ, Sil-lum Kung Fu, and other styles represented in our current crop of escrimadors. Every single one of them came to us with at least fairly well developed empty hand skills. And every single one struggled significantly when they first picked up a cane.
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Old 11-17-2013, 07:10 AM   #23
ErhnamDJ
 
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
There is something about taking a trained empty hand martial artist and adding reach and leverage that completely discombobulates them.

In fact it's a large reason why most of the escrima based arts teach the cane first and empty hand second. It's FAR easier to transition in that direction than it is to go from empty hand to using a weapon.
That's interesting. So you're saying that learning the stick adds to the fist, but learning the fist doesn't add to the stick?


I think the discussion here was about completely untrained people, though. In GURPS, if you're not trained in any form of combat, then you attack and defend at skill 10 with your fists. But that same person can pick up a club and they use that thing at skill 5. What people have been saying--and what I'm inclined to agree with--is that if you have no training in using your first, and if you have no training in using a club, then you're equally skilled with both and the rules should reflect that.
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:12 AM   #24
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
What people have been saying--and what I'm inclined to agree with--is that if you have no training in using your first, and if you have no training in using a club, then you're equally skilled with both and the rules should reflect that.
Yup, this is my thought on it as well. Honestly, it's not something that's likely to come up much in-game. It mostly means that if a PC wants to not be completely useless in a brawl, they should put at least 1 cp in an unarmed combat skill, rather than resting on (even above-average) DX.
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:19 AM   #25
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Honestly, it's not something that's likely to come up much in-game.
I've seen it come up often enough, particularly in horror games.

DM: "The cultist pulls the knife from his belt and stares at you intently. What do you do?"

Player 1: "I... grab the lead pipe and hold it up ready to fight!"

Player 2: "Big mistake."
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:34 AM   #26
Nereidalbel
 
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
I've seen it come up often enough, particularly in horror games.

DM: "The cultist pulls the knife from his belt and stares at you intently. What do you do?"

Player 1: "I... grab the lead pipe and hold it up ready to fight!"

Player 2: "Big mistake."
Ever see what happens when somebody with no idea of how to fight actually picks up a convenient object and starts swinging? They really do miss a LOT.
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:35 AM   #27
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
I've seen it come up often enough, particularly in horror games.

DM: "The cultist pulls the knife from his belt and stares at you intently. What do you do?"

Player 1: "I... grab the lead pipe and hold it up ready to fight!"

Player 2: "Big mistake."
Good point. In horror and similar low-point games you're far more likely to have characters lacking fundamental adventurer skills. I suppose the counter argument here is that if untrained PCs brawl at skill 6 instead of skill 10 they're even less likely to survive... but that really seems like a matter of encounter balance rather than a rules problem. If the PC party lacks any fighting skills, then a "tough" encounter changes from fighting an equal number of skill 10 thugs, to fighting a single skill 10 thug.

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Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
Ever see what happens when somebody with no idea of how to fight actually picks up a convenient object and starts swinging? They really do miss a LOT.
Do they miss more than they would if they flailed their empty hands?
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:36 AM   #28
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Ever see what happens when somebody with no idea of how to fight actually picks up a convenient object and starts swinging? They really do miss a LOT.
That's not in question. The question is how the same person--who has no idea how to fight--does with their fists or feet. GURPS says they do significantly better with their fists than with the club.
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:40 AM   #29
Nereidalbel
 
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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That's not in question. The question is how the same person--who has no idea how to fight--does with their fists or feet. GURPS says they do significantly better with their fists than with the club.
Getting your fists from Point A to Point B is something the human body and brain are already programmed to do. Just watch any after-school fight some time (I've seen plenty), and you'll notice that punches and kicks routinely find their mark, unless the other guy is putting effort into dodging/blocking. Millions of years of evolution have pre-wired us to hit things with our limbs, but using weaponry is something you have to learn.
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:42 AM   #30
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Default Re: Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
That's not in question. The question is how the same person--who has no idea how to fight--does with their fists or feet. GURPS says they do significantly better with their fists than with the club.
Familiarity from rough schoolyard days?
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