Precise difference between Social Stigmas: Subjugated vs. Valuable Property?

[Langy]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Really? Spray some graffitti on the wall. Now take a sledge hammer to someone's car and pound it all over. Note how differently law and order reacts and how likely you are to be sued...and for how much.

Sure, but that's only a matter of degree - the only difference is the amount of money involved. According to Kromm, it's not a matter of degree at all but a matter of 'anyone can do anything they want' - in other words, there is no punishment for defacing a Subjugated object no matter what.

In any case, Subjugated is used in ultra-tech books to refer to objects that are as expensive as cars or more - up to the millions of dollars.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Langy

Sure, but that's only a matter of degree.

Matters of degree ARE the difference between valuable and disposable. And while AI's may be valuable specific iterations of AI are not. To let me take an example, my computer's operating system is quite expensive if I were to buy it from scratch. But returning it to factory settings is not even though if it was an AI, I would be destroying all of its unique traits that make it an individual.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Matters of degree ARE the difference between valuable and disposable. And while AI's may be valuable specific iterations of AI are not. To let me take an example, my computer's operating system is quite expensive if I were to buy it from scratch. But returning it to factory settings is not even though if it was an AI, I would be destroying all of its unique traits that make it an individual.

I'm talking not just about the software, but also the hardware chassis the AI is riding in. If an NAI has Social Stigma (Subjugated) and is in a multi-billion dollar cybertank, then the tank also has Social Stigma (Subjugated), since the AI and the tank are considered one and the same character.

Also, don't forget the $50,000+ bioroids out there.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Langy

I'm talking not just about the software, but also the hardware chassis the AI is riding in. If an NAI has Social Stigma (Subjugated) and is in a multi-billion dollar cybertank, then the tank also has Social Stigma (Subjugated), since the AI and the tank are considered one and the same character.

Also, don't forget the $50,000+ bioroids out there.

The difference of course lies in the budget of the owner, and even more importantly, the difference in the perceived threat posed by the rogue or runaway. It doesn't matter how much an autonomous tank is worth when you can't take it intact.

[Tuk the Weekah]

I think that the discrepancy might be cleared with a minor change in wording: Valued property [-10]. My car is much more valuable than my dog. My dog is much more valued than my car.

The value (point cost) of the disadvantage really reflects less the legal status and more the owner's response. A bioroboid designed to do manual labour and a bioroboid designed to emulate my nanny could have the same cost; but damage to one is more likely to be responded to with a shrug than damage to the other. In this case, the Nanny-bot is Valued property and is far more protected (anywhere where I am known) than my Drone-bot.

And by the way, the idea that slave-owners, at any time in human history, thought of the vast majority of the "outside slaves" as being anything other than disposable bits of machinery is not in keeping with the historical record. "Inside slaves" were another thing altogether.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Tuk the Weekah

I think that the discrepancy might be cleared with a minor change in wording: Valued property [-10]. My car is much more valuable than my dog. My dog is much more valued than my car.

The value (point cost) of the disadvantage really reflects less the legal status and more the owner's response. A bioroboid designed to do manual labour and a bioroboid designed to emulate my nanny could have the same cost; but damage to one is more likely to be responded to with a shrug than damage to the other. In this case, the Nanny-bot is Valued property and is far more protected (anywhere where I am known) than my Drone-bot.

And by the way, the idea that slave-owners, at any time in human history, thought of the vast majority of the "outside slaves" as being anything other than disposable bits of machinery is not in keeping with the historical record. "Inside slaves" were another thing altogether.

This makes sense, and is how I thought the disad works, but apparently it's incorrect. That's why I'm trying to see how all these descriptions of Subjugated that people are giving fit with Kromm's definition. I can't see how David Johnston's definition melds with Kromm's at all.