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Old 01-16-2013, 11:12 AM   #1
Icelander
 
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Default Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK

When faced with a monster from one's darkest nightmares; what does one need? Beside a miracle?

Guns. Lots of Guns.

I've discussed the melee and unarmed combat styles of people who go out on behalf of the Queen of England* and hunt rogue magicians, spirits made corporeal and sidereal monsters; in this thread. The kind of foes they usually face are mentioned here, along with what happens to the bodies and witnesses. Here's some stuff about their melee weapons, also know as decapitation tools, as well as speculation about less-than-lethal alternatives.

More broadly, I extended the speculative research and solicitation of feedback from forumites to the whole circle of people around HM who were aware of the existence of the supernatural in this thread.

After having more-or-less made up my mind on the question of how the men who jokingly refer to themselves as the Queen's Paranormal Rangers would fight unarmed and with melee weapons, I started to wonder about their primary armament, namely firearms.

In a post in the thread on Ranger Combatives, I lay forth some of the problems with obtaining military grade weaponry for an unofficial group that essentially operates outside the law. Of course, by thus hiding a post on modern weaponry in a fairly long thread on martial arts, I've ensured that HANS or other people knowledgable about or interested in firearms are unlikely to ever see it. It is really more suitable for its own thread.

I'm assuming, for the reasons given in the linked post, that the conspiracy obtains most of its armament through technically-illegal, but practically very hard to track, subterfuge like having foreign monarchs or government, such as the Sultan of Brunei or one of the friendly Emirs in the UAE, order smallarms from a British factory, receive an empty case and conspiciously failing to complain, with a wink and a nod.

They also have the option of having one of their people still inside the armed services or police forces write off some arms cached in one of their armouries, but would only do so if it was almost certain not to come out.

This need not imply that they tell those who handle the transaction what it's for. The foreign monarch would know that he had done a favour for a British royal or another very important person and someone important at the UK factory would know the same thing. Same could apply to senior police or military men giving orders to 'lose' armoury weapons. Some would do it because they knew about the supernatural and agreed with the need to counter it, even if the government didn't yet.

In other cases, the transaction could be more quid pro quo, the influence of the Shadow Court used on behalf of someone who did them a favour within knowing too much, perhaps with an (implied) cover story about a secret government agency needing the weapons for some sort of black operation. Such a cover story, in any event, would be all that was needed for the actual people who 'lose' the weapons.

Practically speaking, the conspiracy is thus more-or-less limited to weapons made in the UK or issued at some point to their armed services or police. Granted, they could probably obtain some other weapons in small numbers, but it will be much easier to get their hands on UK-made stuff. The first time the conspiracy started to buy weapons, it was ca 1991-1995, when they would have tried to get weapons for maybe 10-20 people. By 1998-2000, they'd have started to prepare weapons for more people than they had and a large purchase might conceivably date from that time. After 2001, at the latest, they decided to upgrade what they had and stock much more weaponry. The numbers below are minimums to be met by 2010. They should keep on going up every year after that and in the current day, they should have at least 50% more if they can arrange it.

With that in mind, what weapons does the Hive Mind recommend?

I know that L9A1 pistols, MP5SFA2 (and possibly other semi-automatic variety) submachine guns, L1A1 SLR rifles and L2A3 Sterling submachine guns would probably be comparatively easy to obtain from government armouries during the period when the conspiracy starts to collect arms, i.e. between 91-95. I'm wondering about more modern weapons, primarily. TL8 for preference, and for the longarms ideally fairly easy to fit with night-vision devices and suchlike, while at least some of the pistols need to be able to be fitted with effective suppressors without too much hassle.

Glock 17s arm most of the police and would thus be easier to get than many other weapons. A bit big for their purposes, I should think, however. And while the L105A1/A2/A3 pistols are great weapons, I don't think there were ever very many of them in British Army issue and, in any case, they are also a bit big for concealed carry. There are also these weapons, courtesy of Roger Burton West. I don't know how difficult it would be to get hands on some of the more interesting items there, though.

I don't know how many modern HK weapons like the G36C are in the hands of their police tactical units and how practical it would be to obtain a few of them surreptiously, but if they can, it would be an ideal longarm.

The most important needs are the following:

a) Carry pistols. In all, would need some 250 of those. Maybe 50 could be full-size, but most of the rest would need to be comfortable for all-day carry and even suitable for carry by civilians with limited training and while wearing clothing that could not always be selected merely for covert carry suitability. Ideal weapons are high-capacity and power for their size, but still slim and small enough so that most people can carry them all day. Some might also need to be small enough for carry as a backup weapon or by slight persons, such as women.

b) Entry longarms. The most power in a small package possible, because they might need to be concealed in vehicles or carried while disguised as deliverymen or repair staff. Need about a fifty of these. Also need the optics, NVGs, flashlights and all those accessories, in a way that won't raise eyebrows when you have to get fifty or so of each.

c) Extra-power longarms. Something that can take down beings resistant to regular SMG or carbine rounds, like a cut-down 7.62mm rifle, a .50 Beowulf carbine or a small but high-capacity squad automatic weapon. Something like a G3KA4 or the F.R. MC-51** would be nice. Need at least ten.

d) Tactical shotguns. Again, as easy to conceal as possible, but as powerful as possible. Need a round dozen, maybe two dozen.

e) Covert longarms, fairly easily suppressed. Need a dozen or two. Not only the guns are a problem here, because they'd also need a source of really good suppressors.

*And Scotland, Nothern Ireland and some fifteen other Commonwealth nations.
**Both of which are possibilities, but somewhat rare for our purposes. Even if they managed to snag some from storage, I think they'd need a source of more such weapons.
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:31 PM   #2
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Default Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK

Why not buy them on the black market, rather than through official but black channels. If they think you're Irish revolutionaries it doesn't leave any kind of trail that you're a shadow branch of the British government. Or likewise utilize the arms smuggling networks that narcotics dealers most certainly have.

Alternately, what's to prevent procurement from foreign sources, other than local pride? There are any number of unsavory characters willing to sell weapons with few questions asked, provided the EFT to the account in the Caymen Islands is good. AR15 clones are common on the market (although at the moment priced astronomically high due to political hysteria), they should be easy to source. Guns of similar design but chambered for the larger 7.62mm NATO round are also available, typically from the same manufacturers.
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:55 PM   #3
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Default Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK

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Why not buy them on the black market, rather than through official but black channels. If they think you're Irish revolutionaries it doesn't leave any kind of trail that you're a shadow branch of the British government. Or likewise utilize the arms smuggling networks that narcotics dealers most certainly have.
For the most part, because none of the people involved are criminals or likely to have contacts with many such. Except possibly a few cops, but even so, they are PPOs in SO14 and not terrorist or drug unit people. They are likely to know important industrialists, some of whom may control armament factories, and they know both foreign and local royalty and military personnel. These people, unlike many criminals, may actually have good skills in covering up their traces and many of them will have already demonstrated loyalty and discretion in service to HM. Not to mention that most of them are likely to share a dislike of appearing in the press.

There's also the problem that black market weapon transactions are typically deeply unprofessional affairs, where trust is hard to come by and a certain percentage is bound to go wrong. For professional criminals, a risk to be endured. For HM the Queen and people around her, it would mean a huge media furor, a parlimentary investigation and a complete end to all their well-meaning paranormal activities. The extent of arms smuggling into rich Western nations by out-and-out criminals, armed robbers, drug barons and suchlike, is also often exaggerated. In reality, most gang-related violence is caused by knives or blunt trauma. That holds true both in the US and especially so in the UK. Even when there are gang-related shootings, the weapons used tend to be legal firearms that have been stolen or otherwise transfered from their legal owners.

Military firearms almost never turn up in the hands of criminals on the streets. While there are incidents to the contrary, for the most part, these are exceptional in the same way as winning the lottery or being struck by lightning is. It isn't something to plan on. If you approached a random criminal, even one running a large drug organisation, chances are that he'd not have any good way of getting military hardware for you, no matter what you paid him. Why should he? That's not what he does. It's a high-risk, low-reward business. The people who grow wealthy from the arms trade are legal industrialists, not street criminals.

When you have trustworthy and loyal contacts inside UK arms factories and are friendly with people like Sultan Qaboos of Oman, Sultan Hassanal of Brunei and King al-Khalifa of Bahrain (before him his father the late Sheikh), it's simply more reliable and discreet to use them to obtain the weapons and obscure any paper trail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayDowling View Post
Alternately, what's to prevent procurement from foreign sources, other than local pride? There are any number of unsavory characters willing to sell weapons with few questions asked, provided the EFT to the account in the Caymen Islands is good. AR15 clones are common on the market (although at the moment priced astronomically high due to political hysteria), they should be easy to source. Guns of similar design but chambered for the larger 7.62mm NATO round are also available, typically from the same manufacturers.
Mainly the risk of having them smuggled into the country. If they were accidentally discovered and someone started to trace the money trail, it that could blow the conspiracy wide open.

It isn't that they couldn't do it, it's that the theoretical advantages of being able to buy any brand you like probably don't outweight the extra risks involved.

An exception might be if they set up their own Private Security Company, which they'd contrive to get authorised to purchase military weapons. Establish a false employment history with the assistance of UAE and other Gulf monarchs, as trainers to various units there, and list some of the weapons shipped abroad when they actually stayed behind for use by Ranger teams.

But they probably couldn't do that for too many weapons. Maybe 10-20 carbines with accessories, sidearms and some special items. But I don't see them getting away with securing all their weapons this way, for one thing because the larger the PSC is, the greater the risk of them appearing on the radar with UK security services and military intelligence, not to mention potential media attention.
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK

I had been under the impression that they were a good deal more black than what you have described. If you want to remain truly black you wouldn't want to touch those kinds of contacts. You'd want everybody thinking they were selling to untrustworthy scum.
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:30 PM   #5
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Default Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK

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I had been under the impression that they were a good deal more black than what you have described. If you want to remain truly black you wouldn't want to touch those kinds of contacts. You'd want everybody thinking they were selling to untrustworthy scum.
When people think they are selling guns to criminals, there is the risk that they'll tell the cops or the media about it. Or just some of their criminal friends, who then talk to someone else. And the cops might come across the trade through investigating the day jobs of the criminals in question.

When respectable people are under the impression that they are selling to unofficial arms of the military, intelligence or security services, however, they may remain discreet in the hope of getting larger and more public deals later.

The primary goal of the Shadow Court is for the supernatural to eventually become known and for their members, associates and contacts to then guide the governments of the UK and other Commonwealth nations behind the scenes to the proper measures to take to combat abuse of it. Secondary goals include the protection of the Royal Family, British and Commonwealth subjects and vital British interests during the transition period while the government remains unaware of the occult.

In order to accomplish these goals, people associated with the conspiracy have discreetly infiltrated the British armed services and security services. Many people who would have known about the early stages have by now become leading figures in business, with contact networks of their own.

One aspect of the conspiracy is that they've tried to warn foreign monarchs and governments with close ties to Great Britain about the supernatural, in order to enable them to safeguard their rulers from arcane attack. They do this through circuitous means, preferably approaching a person known to senior Shadow Courtiers and the foreign government both and having him handle the actual approach. If he's not believed, the risk of expose is still fairly low* and the worst case scenario still reveals only someone with a peripheral connection to the central figures in the conspiracy. Anything anyone could say publicly would be rampant speculation and dismissed by mainstream media like claims that the Queen is a lizard-person.

And when obtaining weapons, they don't have to tell everyone involved what they need them for or even reveal the existence of any organised group. The risks can be taken by one man in the group, who is prepared to go the prison if caught, and he'll do his best to suggest that the weapons are to be used by a secret government agency.

Such people as the former Chief Instructor, Tactics Wing, of the School of Infantry can plausibly claim to be on secret Whitehall or Army business when they ask an industrialist to disappear a shipment of guns so that no media or NGO watchdog groups know where they are sent. Maybe he'll tell them, off the record, that they are being sent to an unpopular regime in the Middle East. Through the King of Bahrain or Sultan of Oman in the Middle East, the paperwork can even back up the weapons leaving the UK and arriving there.

On the UK end, the industrialist who helped with it may then be rewarded through secret influence, with nothing written down and them not even knowing who they were helping or that there is any such thing as a secret paranormal conspiracy. On the foreign end, the monarch may not have any idea what he was helping with either, though he does know that someone close to the Crown did ask him to do it.

*Monarchs in the Gulf are not notably fond of the press.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:16 PM   #6
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Default Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK

One thing to consider is that their is a famed English tradition of gunsmiths who make awesome arms for the well to do (admittedly usually sporting arms)

The fine upstanding citizenry of the Shadow Court might know some of these gentlemen well enough to ask them to build weapons for the cause
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
When people think they are selling guns to criminals, there is the risk that they'll tell the cops or the media about it. Or just some of their criminal friends, who then talk to someone else. And the cops might come across the trade through investigating the day jobs of the criminals in question.
You basically have three choices for weapons: you can get it from the black market, you can smuggle it in from places where it's legal, and you can get it in an official manner. Exactly what cover story you're using to acquire it on the black market does not make it not a black market transaction.

On checking, the UK firearms manufacturing business seems fairly marginal, though it does exist, but it's probably easier to smuggle in Eastern European weapons.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:30 PM   #8
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You basically have three choices for weapons: you can get it from the black market, you can smuggle it in from places where it's legal, and you can get it in an official manner. Exactly what cover story you're using to acquire it on the black market does not make it not a black market transaction.
Actually, the prefered nomenclature for transactions where arms are legally sold to one place and actually end up somewhere else is 'grey market'. And that's how British private military/security contractors with a rumoured connection to government agencies have traditionally obtained weapons they were strictly speaking not entitled to buy in order to use them for purposes not officially condoned by the British government.

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On checking, the UK firearms manufacturing business seems fairly marginal, though it does exist, but it's probably easier to smuggle in Eastern European weapons.
Possible. That is, after all, how a mix of high-status socialtes and ex-military mercenaries from the UK obtained a fully armed Hind attack helicopter for the purposes of a coup in Africa. But for smallarms, they seem to prefer Western weapons and are somehow able to get their hands on some. There have been numerous rumours about British industrialists doing essentially what I've been describing above, though they are usually suspected of doing so on behalf of MI6 or other shadowy government organisations.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:35 PM   #9
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The other issue, I think, is that the Rangers want a significant quantity of standardized, combat-effective weapons. That would be hard to get on the criminal market, especially in the UK, and likely to provoke seller's remorse or catch police or intelligence attention. So relying on contacts in industry and foreign governments seems more sensible than the commercial market.

If they just wanted a few handguns or shotguns, and were not choosy about what they got, the commercial black market would make more sense. I also wonder if illicit imports from elsewhere in the EU, such as Italy, would be a possibility.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:39 PM   #10
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Set up a workshop, get some immigrants from Pashtun, and manufacture anything you want. They make some pretty heavy weapons in Darra.
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