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Old 12-02-2012, 06:29 PM   #1
Lord Dynel
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Default GURPS Fantasy or DF?

First off, my apologies if this has been discussed many, many, many times before. I've looked and read some discussion, but I didn't quite find what I was looking for. If this question's been asked (too many time) feel free to link a thread discussing it.

I'm going to be running a fantasy genre mini-arc, probably 5-7 games during the next few months while my normal game (non-GURPS) is on hiatus. I haven't played GURPS since the 3rd Edition era, and I was only a player, not a GM. This time around, I'll be GM'ing. Honestly, if it's liked enough by the table, there will be some there who will push for it to be a full blown campaign.

Now I've been reading through the both Core books in preparation for this game. In the past few days, however, I got to thinking about Dungeon Fantasy, which I do not presently own. I've always been under the assumption that DF was more-or-less a stripped down version of GURPS to get those who want to play a GURPSified version of the standard fantasy RPG into the action. But being ignorant of the supplements, I have some questions.

Is that above assumption correct? Is it just a fantasy-focused supplement that keeps all the extraneous stuff out, or is it more?

What are the benefits of running a DF game over a "Basic + Fantasy" game, if any? Which is preferable to you all and why?

I know I'm probably falling prey to a misnomer on its name, but does DF lend itself to all styles of fantasy game or is it geared to a specific type (dungeon crawl)?

I'm figuring the game will be a standard 2e AD&D style of game, with a little less magic than 2e brings to the table. I want to do a good mix of roleplaying and combat, dungeon crawl, wilderness, and city/town stuff. One of the reasons we want to cover as many facets as we can is because we want to see how GURPS handles these different environments and situations. Any feedback in this area would be appreciated.

I think that's about it...or at least all I can think of at the moment. I've owned these books for years, and am a big fan of the game. I've lurked here for quite a while, with few posts. I'm excited to give it a try (and rather surprised that my players were wanting to as well) and look forward to any feedback you guys could afford. Thanks.
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:39 PM   #2
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Default Re: GURPS Fantasy or DF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Dynel View Post
Is that above assumption correct? Is it just a fantasy-focused supplement that keeps all the extraneous stuff out, or is it more?
It's correct. Though a better way of saying it would be to say it's focused, rather than stripped down. That is, it doesn't use a simplified system, and you'll still need the core books, but it tends to focus only on the things that matters to DF. Templates mean you don't spend as much time shuffling through the core book when making characters, and DF2 tends to focus you on the rules that will matter most in the game, etc.

Quote:
What are the benefits of running a DF game over a "Basic + Fantasy" game, if any? Which is preferable to you all and why?
DF is straight-up Dungeon Crawling games. Some people compare it to D&D, but a better comparison might be to Diablo or Hackmaster. DF is all about going into dungeons, killing monsters, and taking their stuff, and it's not about anything else.

Fantasy is broader. It'll tackle everything from making your own setting, tailoring the magic rules to your own needs, and will provide tons of templates you can use to build your own world.

DF is about stripping your game down to a core element (dungeon crawling), while Fantasy is about expanding your game and your world to better encompass fantasy tropes. DF lets you hit the ground running. Fantasy helps you build worlds.

Said differently, Fantasy is better for any non-dungeon-crawling games (though DF can provide insights on how to hone a game).

Quote:
I know I'm probably falling prey to a misnomer on its name, but does DF lend itself to all styles of fantasy game or is it geared to a specific type (dungeon crawl)?
It's specifically geared towards dungeon crawling. Now, like I said, it's focused, not stripped down. You could easily start bringing other elements in if you wanted, but the core rules don't really support anything else, and as the supplements go on, they have a strong "munchkin" streak in them, with monsters built around the assumption that players are going to twink their characters to hell. If you go deep into DF, it's a very focused sub-game of GURPS. But you don't have to go deep into it: DF 1, 2 and 3 will give you plenty to get started, and will certainly inspire broader games (at least, they did with me).

Quote:
I'm figuring the game will be a standard 2e AD&D style of game, with a little less magic than 2e brings to the table. I want to do a good mix of roleplaying and combat, dungeon crawl, wilderness, and city/town stuff. One of the reasons we want to cover as many facets as we can is because we want to see how GURPS handles these different environments and situations. Any feedback in this area would be appreciated.
I suspect Fantasy would be the better supplement, but are you on a budget? If you get both Fantasy and DF 1 and 2, I think you'll find plenty of inspiration in both. Fantasy will offer you ideas on how to make the world yours and will offer you a variety of broader, more colorful templates, while DF offers plenty of ideas on how to tackle the rules mechanics of your typical dungeon crawl. Put the two together, and you'll get a rather role-play heavy game with a focus on dungeon crawling and cool combat, and that might fit the bill nicely.
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:55 PM   #3
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Default Re: GURPS Fantasy or DF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Dynel View Post
Is that above assumption correct? Is it just a fantasy-focused supplement that keeps all the extraneous stuff out, or is it more?
To give essentially the same answer as Mailanka in somewhat different words: DF is all about running dungeon-crawl adventuring. It has focused templates and lenses allowing players to pick their favorite adventuring archetype (warrior, thief, etc.) and build characters in minutes. It also provides the GM with similar tools: pre-built stats, treasure lists, formats for describing traps, and so on. It lets you know what to use (and by omission, what to ignore) in order to get a particular kind of campaign up and running quickly.

Fantasy is not about a particular style of campaign. It's a guide to topics one might consider when thinking about running a game with magic. So it's not just dungeon crawls. It touches on mythic fantasy, paranomal romance, wainscot fantasy, and so on. In short, you can talk about running a DF game because DF is a particular type of game, but you can't really talk about running a GURPS Fantasy (as in the book) type of game, because it's about a broad range of types. Fantasy is a starting point for deciding what kind of game you want to run; DF is a complete tool for running a specific kind of game.
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Old 12-02-2012, 08:54 PM   #4
Joe
 
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Default Re: GURPS Fantasy or DF?

The others said it well.

I'd just add the following, in case it helps to clarify:

The Fantasy book itself is not a fantasy world for GURPS roleplaying; it's a toolkit for building fantasy worlds for GURPS roleplaying. It's got heaps of great ideas and advice on how to build a world, a campaign, and so on. But if you're looking for something you can just pick up and play, this isn't it.

If you're looking for a pre-built Fantasy world to play in, using GURPS rules, you might want to consider Banestorm. That's a fully-developed world, rather than a world-creation kit.

Lastly, Dungeon Fantasy is definitely focused on dungeon crawling, as the name suggests; but you don't have to stay there. You certainly can use the DF series to do adventures in town or in the wilderness - as long as those adventures mostly concern Killing Monsters and Taking Their Stuff.

In terms of how much work you need to do as a GM, the hierarchy is as follows, from most work to least:
  1. Fantasy (The book provides great advice; the GM uses it to build the world and then build the campaign)
  2. Banestorm (The book provides the world; the GM still builds the campaign)
  3. Dungeon Fantasy (The books provide the whole campaign style - i.e. killing monsters, taking their stuff, and getting more powerful - and due to that stripped-back campaign style, little world development is necessary)

I think all three are excellent, by the way.

Last edited by Joe; 12-02-2012 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: GURPS Fantasy or DF?

Fantasy isn't a book for non-GURPS folks to pick up quickly. There's a lot there and much of it isn't immediately applicable to player characters.

DF, from what I've seen of it, is also very rules and combat heavy. I agree that it seems like the best comparison is Hackmaster. That might appeal to your players, but it doesn't sound like it suits what you have in mind for your campaign.

I'd suggest that, as a beginning GM and a crew of players who probably aren't up to speed on GURPSiana, that you try to stick with GURPS Basic as much as possible. It's easy to do a GURPS low-fantasy game using just the
Basic Set, especially if you go light on the magic.

If you want a pre-packaged fantasy setting designed to work well with the GURPS Basic Set rules, look at GURPS Banestorm. It's got enough familiar fantasy templates and tropes that it should satisfy people who are just familiar with D&D.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:01 AM   #6
Lord Dynel
 
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Default Re: GURPS Fantasy or DF?

Thanks for all the fantastic advice. I really appreciate it.

I have all the GURPS hardbacks. I picked them up, envisioning myself running either a modern or a supers game at some point. It never materialized and my GURPS collection was, sadly, relegated to shelf dressing and good reading material. At least up to now. So, I have the all the resources, but I don't have any of the DF stuff. Just to give you all a little more information.

Your replies have led to a couple more questions, if that's okay.

Okay, so DF has, indeed, a dungeon exploring focus.

TBC, you mentioned that DF has "focused templates" of the "adventuring archetype." Would I be safe to assume that these templates (warrior, thief, etc.) you mentioned are completely different than those mentioned in Fantasy? Would it benefit me to have access to both?

Speaking of templates, since I'd never been looking for them until now, is there are there additional ones elsewhere in a place I might be missing them? I know the ones from Fantasy, Basic (warrior), and Banestorm will be especially helpful.

Lastly, monsters. I know there is are, scattered about the books, monsters that would work great for a fantasy game. What's the opinion of DF Monsters I? Would they be a suitable resource for monsters for a non-DF game? Or are they built or flavored to work primarily in a DF-specific game?

Again, thanks for all the input. It is greatly appreciated!
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:18 AM   #7
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Default Re: GURPS Fantasy or DF?

The DF templates are different from regular ones in that they give you almost everything that will be on your character sheet. You get less more options than usual, but much less discretionary points to spend, which can help a lot with new players.

You can run a dungeon crawling campaign perfectly well without using the DF templates and related rules for anything but inspiration, though. They are more focused in that you won't find things that don't matter inside the dungeon on them. For example, Status and Rank are absent from DF templates. If you want to include social situations apart from monster negotiations, you'd probably want to give your players another 10 points to spend on missing traits. The DF templates are also relatively high-powered at 250 points apiece.

As you are running a mini-campaign the DF templates may be interesting to you, because they're probably more balanced than regular templates. It would probably not be such a good idea to mix and match DF and regular templates. For your campaign you might get better use out of the racial templates in DF3: The Next Level, though. That is if you want to include ready-made non-humans. I think you got the books with most of the fantasy templates so far. Later DF books add some specialist templates, though.

DF: Monsters 1 is a great book and works fine with regular fantasy campaigns. You might need the first two DF books for some rules, but you should be able to get 95% of the content without them. The monsters are geared towards DF power levels and will be difficult encounters for significantly weaker heroes, but they are sufficiently varied and some are appropriate for 125-point characters (albeit in lower numbers than suggested).

Some general advice: DF helped me get my first GURPS Fantasy campaign into gear, because there are a lot of helpful bits for the GM in the books even if you don't use templates. DF 1 has a good little gear list. DF 2 has rules for traps, selling loot and such (and a couple of monsters), DF 3 has ready-made racial templates, DF 5 has familiars and animal companions, DF 6 has nifty artefacts, DF 8 has extensive treasure tables and so on. I'd say give DF 1 a try unless you're on a tight budget and see whether the templates and the rest are worth your money and then decide whether you want more.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:42 AM   #8
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Default Re: GURPS Fantasy or DF?

DF 1 and 2, though mypoically focused on dungeon crawls, are still definitely worth getting for any starting GURPS fantasy group as a resource for character creation (DF1) and GMing advice (DF2). I have found GURPS fantasy somewhat less useful, as most of it is not GURPS-specific advice...so if you're an experienced GM with fantasy games of any kind (D&D, etc.) you probably won't need it. You most likely have an idea already of what the fantasy genre is all about, what style of game you want to play, and so on. If you need advice on what kind of fantasy game to run, it's worth getting.

The templates in DF1 are a mixed bag--some players love them (cuts down on option overload, which can be a serious problem in GURPS chargen, and provides great advice on the most powerful advantages and skills for a particular character archetype), while others hate them (sample complaints: Why can't I be a fighter who can cast a few spells as well? Why can't my thief be good with the sword? Why does my barbarian warrior have to have so many points in outdoorsy skills? I thought the cool thing about GURPS was that I could model any character imaginable!).
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:07 AM   #9
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Default Re: GURPS Fantasy or DF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Dynel View Post
...
Speaking of templates, since I'd never been looking for them until now, is there are there additional ones elsewhere in a place I might be missing them?
...
See the second Sticky on the top of the GURPS Forum page:
GURPS Official Template List
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:28 AM   #10
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Default Re: GURPS Fantasy or DF?

I've used Dungeon Fantasy to introduce GURPS newbies to the system, and it worked very well - it reduced the vast options of GURPS to something more digestible for newcomers. It covers most of the classic D&D archetypes (the only thing missing are some classical D&D monsters - but the GURPS Repository might help with that).

For a longer-running campaign you might want to put some more work into campaign prep, but for a short campaign it should work just fine.
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