Telegraphic Attack for Ranged Combat?

Plane · 06-24-2019, 08:40 AM

For melee attacks, the Telegraphic Attack option gives a bonus equivalent to All-Out Attack (Determined) which in the case of melee attacks is +4, in exchange for giving a +2 bonus to defend for targets.

In the case of ranged attacks, All-Out Attack (Determined) gives only a +1 bonus.

To give ranged fighters a chance at a bit more accuracy (that Speed-Range table can be pretty rough, especially for people throwing/shooting at default) how do you think a +1 to hit in exchange for +2 to defend would play out?

JazzJedi · 06-24-2019, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plane

For melee attacks, the Telegraphic Attack option gives a bonus equivalent to All-Out Attack (Determined) which in the case of melee attacks is +4, in exchange for giving a +2 bonus to defend for targets.

In the case of ranged attacks, All-Out Attack (Determined) gives only a +1 bonus.

To give ranged fighters a chance at a bit more accuracy (that Speed-Range table can be pretty rough, especially for people throwing/shooting at default) how do you think a +1 to hit in exchange for +2 to defend would play out?

For throwing, an argument can be made that an overly telegraphed throw would be easier to defend, and could represent an a overly slow throw, like an underhand lob instead of a fast pitch. My tennis teacher is really good at serving and returning my balls with these beautiful arcing lobs that are easy for me to intercept and hit. But for any other kind of ranged attack I cannot. Telegraphing is just aiming. How do you telegraph a pistol shot once you've aimed?

Aiming takes a second (or more) anyway, and if a character notices that an enemy is aiming at them, they can choose to run and get under cover before they finish. That covers that situation much better.

whswhs · 06-24-2019, 09:15 AM

I'm not sure about this as a project. Do you have a narrative in mind about what a shooter or thrower would be doing to gain this benefit? Or are you simply seeing that a certain kind of task is difficult and trying to find a way to make it easier game mechanically, without necessarily having any "this is how it happened" in mind? I must confess that I tend to think of the game mechanics in GURPS as driven by the narrative, and not the other way around. If there isn't a narrative that has me asking, "How would I represent this within the rules," I'd usually just go with the standard rules.

~~evileeyore~~ · 06-24-2019, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plane

To give ranged fighters a chance at a bit more accuracy...

... they should Aim. That's what it is there for.

Tomsdad · 06-24-2019, 01:14 PM

The problem I have with he concept is that there are lots of ranged attacks that circumvent defences either in abstract (they don't allow them) or just in play (the target is often less aware of incoming ranged attacks than melee ones) so having +2 to defend is often not as much of a trade off as it is in melee. That said you're not giving them +4 to hit either!

Ultimately you like the concept the best test is it try it out and see how it plays at your table.

On the subject in general I'd recommend "Dodge this" Pyramid 3/57 but especially "On target" Pyramid 3/77, (both by Douglas Cole)

If nothing else as well as it core concept the latter offers options for All out Attack determined that give +2 to hit with extra penalties that can be used perfectly well as is. (but ultimately it add's a quick, easy & exciting sub system to spice up ranged combat in and off itslef nd as part fo wider combt, and I heartly recommend it)

Black Leviathan · 06-24-2019, 01:17 PM

I also can't think of a real-world example of where a telegraphed swing would improve damage. You're already putting as much strength into that throw as you can. Although I could see an argument for a discrete throw like wrist-snapping a throwing knife at someone under-handed where maybe the damage is stepped down a point but it's harder to dodge?

Varyon · 06-24-2019, 01:25 PM

It makes no sense in a realistic setting, but I could certainly see it in a highly cinematic and supernatural setting (where I’d visualize it similarly to the “dodge assist” lines from the second season of Sword Art Online). Maintaining the ranged vs melee relationship makes sense, although as Tomsdad notes a +2 for ranged All-Out Attack can work better, in which case you’d probably want to boost the ranged telegraphic attack to +2 as well.

newton · 06-24-2019, 02:37 PM

why dont you just use a laser sight in this case, it gives exactly the effect that you want, +1 to hit(regardless of aim) and +1 to enemy dodge

Boge · 06-24-2019, 03:17 PM

It feels, with midieval weapons at least, that there needs more balance on the side of ranged. With melee, you get dual weapon attacks, rapid strikes, even extra attacks, where with ranged you get quick shooting at best?

Melee gets telegraphic attacks at +4, all out attack determined is +4. Ranged gets +1 and also suffers from ranged penalties which can be pretty severe.

I understand the benefits of staying at range, but when you play Gurps and you're a melee combat specialist doing 3+ attacks per turn, killing 3 people per turn with 3d6+ damage swings and then you see your friend over there shooting 1 arrow every other turn for 1d thrust, barely penetrating their armor, you realize the imbalance pretty quickly.

Out of turn combat can be a different situation with stealth bow kills. In combat sucks though. And forget about it if you use a crossbow. You might get off 3 shots before the combat is over.

Plane · 06-24-2019, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

On the subject in general I'd recommend "Dodge this" Pyramid 3/57 but especially "On target" Pyramid 3/77, (both by Douglas Cole)

I love his "Aim as Attack" concept, but given it uses the same skill+penalties as shooting itself, it makes it really hard to make those rolls and actually begin building up bonuses.

a basic +4 (Telegraphic Aim?) would make passing them a lot better

A +2 could apply to perception rolls to see the person aiming, and also if you allowed them to dodge the aim to make them "shake" the acquired bonuses (compared to say, the Do Nothing stunned guy who isn't trying to dodge the aim, but still gets an equally good chance to dodge the followup shot if he doesn't take Do Nothing as his next turn)

06-24-2019, 08:40 AM	#1
Plane Join Date: Aug 2018	Telegraphic Attack for Ranged Combat? For melee attacks, the Telegraphic Attack option gives a bonus equivalent to All-Out Attack (Determined) which in the case of melee attacks is +4, in exchange for giving a +2 bonus to defend for targets. In the case of ranged attacks, All-Out Attack (Determined) gives only a +1 bonus. To give ranged fighters a chance at a bit more accuracy (that Speed-Range table can be pretty rough, especially for people throwing/shooting at default) how do you think a +1 to hit in exchange for +2 to defend would play out?

06-24-2019, 09:15 AM	#3
whswhs Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS	Re: Telegraphic Attack for Ranged Combat? I'm not sure about this as a project. Do you have a narrative in mind about what a shooter or thrower would be doing to gain this benefit? Or are you simply seeing that a certain kind of task is difficult and trying to find a way to make it easier game mechanically, without necessarily having any "this is how it happened" in mind? I must confess that I tend to think of the game mechanics in GURPS as driven by the narrative, and not the other way around. If there isn't a narrative that has me asking, "How would I represent this within the rules," I'd usually just go with the standard rules. __________________ Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more.

06-24-2019, 01:14 PM	#5
Tomsdad Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Brighton	Re: Telegraphic Attack for Ranged Combat? The problem I have with he concept is that there are lots of ranged attacks that circumvent defences either in abstract (they don't allow them) or just in play (the target is often less aware of incoming ranged attacks than melee ones) so having +2 to defend is often not as much of a trade off as it is in melee. That said you're not giving them +4 to hit either! Ultimately you like the concept the best test is it try it out and see how it plays at your table. On the subject in general I'd recommend "Dodge this" Pyramid 3/57 but especially "On target" Pyramid 3/77, (both by Douglas Cole) If nothing else as well as it core concept the latter offers options for All out Attack determined that give +2 to hit with extra penalties that can be used perfectly well as is. (but ultimately it add's a quick, easy & exciting sub system to spice up ranged combat in and off itslef nd as part fo wider combt, and I heartly recommend it) __________________ Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. not too* high of course Last edited by Tomsdad; 06-25-2019 at 03:06 PM.

06-24-2019, 01:17 PM	#6
Black Leviathan Join Date: Sep 2018	Re: Telegraphic Attack for Ranged Combat? I also can't think of a real-world example of where a telegraphed swing would improve damage. You're already putting as much strength into that throw as you can. Although I could see an argument for a discrete throw like wrist-snapping a throwing knife at someone under-handed where maybe the damage is stepped down a point but it's harder to dodge?

06-24-2019, 01:25 PM	#7
Varyon Join Date: Jun 2013	Re: Telegraphic Attack for Ranged Combat? It makes no sense in a realistic setting, but I could certainly see it in a highly cinematic and supernatural setting (where I’d visualize it similarly to the “dodge assist” lines from the second season of Sword Art Online). Maintaining the ranged vs melee relationship makes sense, although as Tomsdad notes a +2 for ranged All-Out Attack can work better, in which case you’d probably want to boost the ranged telegraphic attack to +2 as well. __________________ GURPS Overhaul

06-24-2019, 02:37 PM	#8
newton Join Date: Oct 2018	Re: Telegraphic Attack for Ranged Combat? why dont you just use a laser sight in this case, it gives exactly the effect that you want, +1 to hit(regardless of aim) and +1 to enemy dodge

06-24-2019, 03:17 PM	#9
Boge Join Date: Jul 2015	Re: Telegraphic Attack for Ranged Combat? It feels, with midieval weapons at least, that there needs more balance on the side of ranged. With melee, you get dual weapon attacks, rapid strikes, even extra attacks, where with ranged you get quick shooting at best? Melee gets telegraphic attacks at +4, all out attack determined is +4. Ranged gets +1 and also suffers from ranged penalties which can be pretty severe. I understand the benefits of staying at range, but when you play Gurps and you're a melee combat specialist doing 3+ attacks per turn, killing 3 people per turn with 3d6+ damage swings and then you see your friend over there shooting 1 arrow every other turn for 1d thrust, barely penetrating their armor, you realize the imbalance pretty quickly. Out of turn combat can be a different situation with stealth bow kills. In combat sucks though. And forget about it if you use a crossbow. You might get off 3 shots before the combat is over.