|
02-12-2012, 05:19 AM | #1 | |
Join Date: Sep 2009
|
Social Engineering: Haggling - Broken?
First of all let me say that I'm not sure I've got the rules understood correctly.
I've got a player who's playing a merchant, so I sat down to wrap my head around the haggling rules in Social Engineering. As far as I can tell, a player can always haggle the merchant to their best possible price, provided the player's initial offer is sufficiently extreme, regardless of their character's skill. This is very metagamey, but it's going to be impossible to avoid to some degree, as far as I can tell. Social Engineering, pg27 Quote:
Here's an example, following the rules as best I understand them: -After influence/reaction rolls, the GM determines that the NPC merchant will make an initial offer of $1100 and be prepared to go as low as $1000 (the NPC is selling). -The PCs respond to the initial offer of $1100 with a counter of $500. -The NPC lowers his asking price by %10 of the difference - new price $1040. -The PCs counter by increasing to $600. -A Quick Contest is rolled, and the PCs lose by 5. The NPC would lower his price by $100 (the amount the PCs adjusted by), minus 10% times the NPCs margin of victory (so 50%). This takes the NPCs adjustment to $50, except that that would take him below his minimum price, so he says "$1000, that's my final offer". In that example, the PC still got the optimum price out of the haggle, despite losing the Quick Contest by 5. So, am I doing it wrong? Anyone have any thoughts? |
|
02-12-2012, 07:06 AM | #2 |
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Philippines, Makati
|
Re: Social Engineering: Haggling - Broken?
Depends on the merchants target margin, if the merchant believes he needs a margin of 80-99% relative to the cost of production then he'll remove the "nice to have" margin out of his price calculation.
Margins you Believe you NEED to make ends meet is different from margins one belieces he needs to afford that nice hous in the better part of town. It all depends on what the other person needs. Anyone who knows their finances will always give an unexpected cost to the buyer, unless the buyer is intrically aware of tthe merchants entire operarional costs and risks. That sword goes $600 in basic set, but in the economy of the setting rife with uncertainty prices are x2-x10 of that. And shrewed merchants who inted to be in business in the long run may believe This is the REAL price of the good. Note there are factors of anchoring effect and market going rate that affect supply and demand. BTW in times of trouble and violence, prices realistically should x2-x10. And people are not inclined to buy, giving up liquidity, except if they are getting a x10-x100 deal factor and the good is easy to sell or pass on. Basically, despite how awesome the player may be in making a deal if the margin will end up risking him and loved ones then he wont go bellow a certain amount. And merchants are a better judge of what amounts they will need in the future and factor that in their pricing. A reguoar person will look at their direct costs and sometimes overlook risks, a mercha twill look at all indirect costs and risks, also know the current supply of the market. Being able to convince someone to mispriorities their priorities needs deception and not bargaining. Prices in basic set has about 20-50% margin which is low for medieval and low tech settings and normal in modern times Last edited by nik1979; 02-12-2012 at 07:14 AM. |
02-12-2012, 07:22 AM | #3 |
Join Date: Sep 2009
|
Re: Social Engineering: Haggling - Broken?
I'm aware that the base prices, and the rules for determining the initial offer and limit price for a merchant involve a lot of abstractions, but this is not what I'm getting at.
Once you have these prices determined, whether they be from the book, or GM fiat, I still want the players to be able to haggle. My point was that as far as I can tell, the haggling rules in Social Engineering are broken for the reasons I gave above. Can anyone confirm my interpretation of these haggling rules? |
02-12-2012, 08:01 AM | #4 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
|
Re: Social Engineering: Haggling - Broken?
If I'm trying to sell you a new mercedes and your initial offer is one penny, I'm going to be insulted. That's not haggling, that's mockery.
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table A Wiki for my F2F Group A neglected GURPS blog |
02-12-2012, 08:25 AM | #5 | |
Join Date: Jan 2012
|
Re: Social Engineering: Haggling - Broken?
Quote:
So, in your example. Initial price $1100, bottom price $1000, unserious price <$900. |
|
02-12-2012, 09:06 AM | #6 | ||
Join Date: Sep 2009
|
Re: Social Engineering: Haggling - Broken?
From your replies it seems, that I'm reading the rules correctly.
Quote:
Quote:
Another thought I've had since I first posted is to adjust the rules slightly, to make the NPCs offers sort of proportional to the ratio between the difference between the NPCs initial offer and the minimum price, and the PCs initial offer and the minimum price. I didn't explain that very well. I'll just use an example To revisit my earlier example, the NPC's initial offer is $1100 the minimum is $1000 (which the PC's will only be able to guess at), and the PC's initial counter-offer is $500. Lets say that the NPC isn't offended, and is prepared to haggle from this point. -The NPC lowers his asking price by %10 of the way to his minimum - new price $1090. -The PCs counter by increasing to $600. -A Quick Contest is rolled, and the PCs lose by 5. The PC has moved 1/5 of the way to the minimum, so the base adjustment for the NPC is $18 (1090-1000 = 90, 90/5 = 18). The NPC then offers a price adjustment of $9 (-50%), making the new price $1081, but I'd round it to $1080 in this case. Things then proceed from there, repeating steps 2-4 as per the book. This isn't perfect, because for one thing, the result of drawing every quick contest will be to arrive exactly at the minimum amount. It'll also take me as the GM longer to work out (but not much longer with a spreadsheet). But the general idea is there: Starting significantly lower has no effect on the outcome, only the outcome of the Quick Contests. I do like the idea of having the NPC not take offers seriously unless they're in the ballpark, and d_ns's suggestion definately would be the simplest solution. I just like to be able to fall back on the crunch where possible. Note that I wouldn't expose any of this to the players, it's just how I'd make the PCs skill rolls affect the NPCs responses during haggling. Does anyone else have any thoughts? |
||
02-12-2012, 08:27 AM | #7 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
|
Re: Social Engineering: Haggling - Broken?
Are you still angry about that? Look, I told you I was short on cash.
__________________
“When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive, to think, to enjoy, to love ...” Marcus Aurelius |
02-12-2012, 10:50 AM | #8 | |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
|
Re: Social Engineering: Haggling - Broken?
Quote:
I try to reflect that in Sagatafl by having five different haggleability classes that an item can belong to. A liter mug of beer is an example of the lowest haggleability class. No matter how well you haggle, you cannot haggle it down by more than a very few percent. Likewise, no matter how badly you haggle, and how well the barman haggles, you won't have to pay more than a very few percent overprice. In fact the haggleability is so low that it's almost completely pointless to try to haggle, so you'll look silly trying to do so. Just cough up the asked price. The highest haggleability class represents a very haggleable price. It's not at all clear to anyone what the price should be. That's for very exotic goods, such as a suit of Enchanted mail in my Ärth setting. It's unreasonable to say that there is a "true" or "proper" price, and therefore neither seller nor buyer can in any sense feel certain that they were "cheated". These are rare items, very rarely sold. Increasing the amount of an item increases haggleability class. One liter of beer is class A. Increase to a 20 liter barrel of beer, and it's class B. Increase again to a shipment of 400 liters of beer, and it's class C (no further increase than 2 Classes is possible). A normal Quality broadsword may be class C, but 12 of them becomes class D, and with 144 or 240 of them (or any other nicely round number) we're talking class E. Also, of course, in an industrial setting, items tend to shift towards Class A. A brand new car is not Class E unless it's extreme luxury and fitted with multiple Bond-grade-gadgets and is bullet-resistant (or if we're talking one of the very first cars ever produced, i.e. in the late 19th century). Haggleability class has less to do with how expensive the item is, and more to do with how common it is, how frequently they are sold, how much competetion there is (from buyers and from sellers), and how transparet the market is (the medieval market for beer is very transparent - prices can fluctuate in case of bad harvests, but that usually only acts upon the "true" price of beer, rather than on haggleability class, although in some cases beer may become so rare that it takes on a "veneer of luxury" and temporarily shifts up to class B). It is somewhat cumbersome, and rquires a few square inches of lookup table (unless you want to do percentage calculations during play - I prefer looking up since it's faster), but it is much better simulation of how the real world works, than anything I've seen in any other RPG. It's also important tonote that the process is 100% character skill-driven. At no point is the player or the GM required or even allowed to suggest a price. The price is "known" by the world (so to speak), and the opposed dice rolls tell what final price was arrived at (so any roleplaying will consist of player and GM arguing about the merits and flaws of the item being sold, rather than at them saying numbers at each other) relative to this "known-by-the-world" price. Neither character is supposed to have good knowledge of the "true" price of a high-haggleability Class item. One thing I don't know is how to handle it when a character (PC or NPC) decides to walk away from the haggle result without buying. Obviously Reputation Points towards a location-based Reputation may be accumulated, but that's a very long term consequence, and the whole idea is that the haggling process consists of two characters trying to reach agreement of what the correct price should be, so in a way they should both think and feel at the end that the correct price was arrived at. |
|
02-12-2012, 08:52 AM | #9 | |
Join Date: Oct 2005
|
Re: Social Engineering: Haggling - Broken?
Quote:
The question, of course, is context. Run the same negotiation where the merchant's initial offer in $1500, and you get something more reasonable. So where do you draw the line of where the merchant simply refuses to negotiate? Define the difference between the initial asking price and the final price as the spread. You'd have to play around with the numbers to figure out what a good place would be, but I'd probably say if the difference between their initial counteroffer and the merchant's final price is more than twice the spread, it's an inappropriate offer. If the merchant receives an inappropriate offer, they won't change their asking price at all. The PCs can make a second counter-offer. This requires a Merchant roll at -1 per inappropriate offer and -1 for each multiple of the spread their new offer is below the final asking price. If they make the Merchant roll and the new offer is within the right range, haggling begins with the new offer counting as the PC's first offer. If the new counter-offer is still inappropriate, repeat the process (with accumulating penalties to the merchant roll) until the PC makes an appropriate offer or fails a roll. If the PC fails a Merchant roll, the NPC is done negotiating: the PC can take the asking price or leave. You should give the PCs some ability to determine approximately what the spread is in an initial encounter, so they can avoid insulting merchants this way if they're careful. This might be external to the negotiation, like looking up the invoice price to help in a car negotiation. It might be culturally determined, so that most spreads, say, 10-25% percent of the asking price in a given campaign (and anyone with Merchant knows this). You might allow a successful Merchant roll to sound out an unfamiliar negotiation, and get the spread (approximately; say add 1d-3 x 25%). |
|
02-12-2012, 09:14 AM | #10 | |
Join Date: Sep 2009
|
Re: Social Engineering: Haggling - Broken?
Quote:
a) explicitly covered in Social Engineering, or, b) I agree and already do it, e.g. merchant roll to determine approximate price. The problem for any scheme where you draw a line and say: Here is where I start haggling, is that the ratio of minimum-PC_offer to NPC_offer-minimum has the effect of directly affecting how successful the PCs will be for a given set of skill rolls, and that doesn't seem right to me. |
|
Tags |
social engineering |
|
|