What is Cardiel?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm still really fuzzy on the whole low vs. high fantasy thing, but I don't see how Nehwon is possibly low fantasy. It's not Earth.

Regrettably, there seem to be multiple incompatible definitions of low fantasy floating around. (Maybe also high fantasy, I haven't looked closely there.)

I don't really see the use of the 'could be shelved in the general fiction section rather than fantasy section' definition though.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm still really fuzzy on the whole low vs. high fantasy thing, but I don't see how Nehwon is possibly low fantasy. It's not Earth.

Any treatment where "high fantasy" = not-earth and "low fantasy" = earth strikes me as seriously oversimplified.

On one hand, you have, well, Lankhmar: fantasy whose "heroes" are two thieves, which takes place in a landscape of urban corruption and betrayal, whose characters are basically driven by money and are always gaining it and losing it. It's more or less noir in a fantasy setting.

On the other hand, you have, for example, C. S. Lewis's space trilogy, whose hero visits Mars and Venus, talks with angels, shapes the destiny of the newly created human race of Venus (at the level of helping to prevent a new Fall), and then, on Earth, gets involved in a clash between Heaven and Hell that involves the calling back of Merlin from the dead and the descent of the planetary intelligences. It's firmly grounded in England, but it's pervaded with myth.

I don't see anything "high" about the first, or "low" about the second.

I prefer to define "high" as close to myth, and "low" as close to daily life. Creating a separate world is a trope in itself, but one that can be part of either.

All this actually repeats the analysis in GURPS Fantasy. . . .

Bill Stoddard

[Bruno]

The problem is when you put the word "High" next to the word "Fantasy" people tend to think "High amounts of fantasy/fantastic elements" as opposed to "High art" or "Highbrow" or "high culture".

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm still really fuzzy on the whole low vs. high fantasy thing, but I don't see how Nehwon is possibly low fantasy. It's not Earth.

According to my proposed classification system here.

The protagonists accomplish heir stuff through skill (innate and consistent badassedness), not subtle divine intervention (plot-dependent performance), and it fits with my hypothesis that such protagonists will be cynical and somewhat self-serving, rather than morally idealistic.

It's also a low magic setting.

As the blog entry points out, the terms "high fantasy" and "low fantasy" do not have agreed upon meanings. Some people use "low/high fantasy" to refer to magic prevalance, for instance. Technically, I reject the terms, and propose a grid with four corners but no names, but Lankhmar will be low fantasy according to either of the two criteria I'm aware of.

edit: To elaborate, I've never come across any definition of low fantasy, implicit or explicit, that says that "low fantasy" takes place on Earth. This is a first for me.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Bruno

The problem is when you put the word "High" next to the word "Fantasy" people tend to think "High amounts of fantasy/fantastic elements" as opposed to "High art" or "Highbrow" or "high culture".

People who go by the first unthinking impulse about how to interpret a word, instead of thinking it through analytically, aren't likely to come up with opinions that make any sense, let alone with sound criticism.

Bill Stoddard

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by whswhs

People who go by the first unthinking impulse about how to interpret a word, instead of thinking it through analytically, aren't likely to come up with opinions that make any sense, let alone with sound criticism.

Bill Stoddard

We will have to agree to disagree about this.

No matter idf the High/Low terminology was already taken "relative frequency and importance of fantastic elements" is a valid categorization scheme and it's needs some sort of nomenclature.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

We will have to agree to disagree about this.

No matter idf the High/Low terminology was already taken "relative frequency and importance of fantastic elements" is a valid categorization scheme and it's needs some sort of nomenclature.

I agree, and I'm quite interested in good suggestions.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by whswhs

People who go by the first unthinking impulse about how to interpret a word, instead of thinking it through analytically, aren't likely to come up with opinions that make any sense, let alone with sound criticism.

Most people do that and are that. Do go by their first unthinking impulse. And are highly unlikely to come up with sensible opinions or sound criticism.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

In what way can Lankhmar possibly be considered low magic? Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser don't use magic much themselves, but in most of the stories they possitively wade through powerful magic and/or copious divine intervention.


Hans

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

We will have to agree to disagree about this.

No matter idf the High/Low terminology was already taken "relative frequency and importance of fantastic elements" is a valid categorization scheme and it's needs some sort of nomenclature.

But that does not correlate with created world versus earth. You can have a novel set in a created world with no fantasy elements at all. Virtually all alternate history is a case in point; there is also a lot of fiction set in invented countries, from Ruritania to Islandia to Malafrena. I believe there are some novels traditionally viewed as "fantasy" solely because they are set in invented worlds, despite their having no magic, no gods, no monsters, and in general none of the standard fantasy elements.

Bill Stoddard