New to GURPS: Zombie Apocalypse

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Kromey

I am currently GMing a D&D 4e campaign (using a home brew setting based loosely on the old 3.5e setting and the events of a previous epic-level campaign I played in, with several updates drawn from the 4e setting), however I'm finding myself growing more and more... well, bored with 4e. I just feel limited, pigeon-holed into WotC's ideas of what characters somehow are supposed to be. It's very restricting. And I want to break free.

You sound like a GURPS player! :)

Originally Posted by Kromey

However, as I'm sure most of you have seen, there are a lot of RPGers -- seemingly especially those who've "grown up" on D&D -- who are extremely prejudiced against the perceived over-complexity of GURPS. If I were to simply approach my group and say "Hey guys, let's convert to GURPS, whaddya say?" they'd simply lynch me!

Yes. We are well aware of this. The prejudice goes both ways in equal amounts.

The difference is, we're right! ;)

Originally Posted by Kromey

I'm shooting for 50 points (upper "average"/lower "exceptional", yes?), and trying to avoid things like the police office or trained soldier (everyone else would be left bored while he mops up the zombies), or the asthmatic accountant (who'd be left bored while everyone else mops up the zombies).

Don't. Not if you want your players to enjoy the game. Remember why you chose to go with GURPS? The freedom? That goes for players more than anything. In fact, it's the #1 selling point of GURPS and you're getting ready to completely cut it out.

Let them play the characters they desire. If they want to be Rambo, let them. If they want to be Dirty Hairy, let them. They will have way more fun than if you force them, pigeon-hole them into what your idea is of what you think their characters somehow are supposed to be. That's very restricting. And, they'll want to break free.

Also, remember, in a zombie apocalypse, the bad asses often die early anyway! It's often the quiet librarians or whatever that are the heroes. So, being a police officer or National Guardsman won't make them any less susceptible to getting eaten in this genre WTSHTF.

I suggest a power level of 100 or 150-point characters with a -50 or -75-point disadvantage limit (p. 11 of Basic Set).

See Power Level, p. 487 of the Basic Set for a discussion of starting points.

When I get some time, I'll make further suggestions on your pre-made PC's.

Basically, I suggest broad, pre-made templates instead of entire characters.

Originally Posted by Kromey

I'd also like to run these stats for a basic zombie by you guys, see if this seems reasonable for this kind of low-power game. I found it on some forum somewhere, maybe even here, but no longer remember where.

Below is my fantasy zombie template which has been play-tested extensively. To make it a contemporary one, just remove its Dependency to magic and its susceptibility to spells.

Zombie

These shambling, rotting corpses limp and hobble forward in the masses -- moaning, growling, hissing and gurgling -- with one goal: kill all sentient life.

Somehow, zombies can sense sentient beings and are driven to slay them. Fortunately for the living, zombies are slow and plodding and aren't intelligent enough to use tools, weapons, or even turn a knob to open doors. Dogs are smarter than zombies.

At night and in utter darkness, zombies can see perfectly. Luckily for those they hunt, their constant moaning and growling can be easily heard.

Without fear of anything, least of all pain or destruction, zombies give little, if any, thought for their own continued existence. They mindlessly attack without defense.

In combat, zombies instantly go berserk (see Battle Rage, p. B124) and always make All-Out-Attacks. They do not suffer from stun or shock and make all rolls to remain conscious at +4 to HT. Injuries cause no penalty to Move and damage from impaling weapons grant no bonus (see Unliving, p. B380). However, zombies do suffer normally when struck in the skull (DR 2; Wounding Modifier is x4) and die instantly when reduced to -HP or below (p. B137).

Attributes: ST 11 [10]; DX 8 [-40]; IQ 3 [-140]; HT 10 [0].

Secondary Characteristics: Dmg 1d-1/1d+1; BL 24; HP 11 [0]; Will 3 [0]; Per 10 [35]; FP 10 [0]; Basic Speed 2.5 [-40]; Basic Move 2 [0].

Advantages and Perks: Dark Vision [25]; Detect (Sentient Beings; Common; Vague, -50%) [10]; Doesn't Breathe [20]; Doesn't Eat or Drink [10]; Doesn't Sleep [20]; High Pain Threshold [10]; Immunity to Metabolic Hazards [30]; Immunity (All mind control) [30]; Indomitable [15]; Injury Tolerance (No Blood, No Eyes, No Vitals, Unliving) [35]; Temperature Tolerance 10 [10]; Unaging [15]; Unfazeable [15].

Disadvantages and Quirks: Appearance (Horrific; Universal, +25%) [-30]; Bad Smell [-10]; Berserk (Battle Rage) (6) [-30]; Bestial [-15]; Cannot Learn [-30]; Cannot Speak [-15]; Dependency (Mana; common, constantly) [-50]; Disturbing Voice [-10]; Fragile (Unnatural) [-50]; Frightens Animals [-10]; Hidebound [-5]; Impulsiveness (6) [-20]; Incurious (6) [-10]; Low Empathy [-20]; No Sense of Humor [-10]; No Sense of Smell/Taste [-5]; Noisy 3 [-6]; Numb [-20]; Obsession (6) (Kill All Sentient Beings) [-30]; On the Edge (6) [-30]; Reprogrammable [-10]; Sexless [-1]; Slave Mentality [-40]; Terminally Ill [-100]; Unhealing (Total) [-30].

Features: Affected by Control Zombie, Pentagram, and Turn Zombie; Fixed IQ; No mental skills.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Kromey

If I were running a campaign in a zombie apocalypse, Horror would definitely be on my list. However, for a one-shot, and especially in a system that's likely to never be used again by my group, having already spent $50 on books is already really hard to swallow; bringing that up to $70 with the PDF for Horror just isn't in the cards right now.

I can fully understand that. It's just that it has templates for low-power characters... but okey.

Originally Posted by Kromey

Knowing my group, we'll probably end up in DF, as it's quite likely that we'll end up converting our current D&D 4e campaign into GURPS, perhaps even to include adapting a form of magic to reproduce/simulate the powers that all D&D 4e characters have (or maybe DF or Fantasy already can account for that?).

I think it would be a mistake to convert powers directly to GURPS. IIRC, many powers do things like "grant an extra healing surge" or "slide enemy three space". These are system-specific concepts - they'll not translate well. It's better to convert roles - striker, leader, controller and defender are fairly universal in combat-heavy fantasy games and that can be easily simulated with existing supplements (Dungeon Fantasy, mainly). If you get DF you should get Magic as well - you can play without it, but your spellcasters will be nerfed. If you want to build your own powers, then Powers is extremely helpful.

Sigh. I'm afraid it's not cheap switching game systems.

(Also, I hope you have downloaded GURPS Lite. I think it's perfectly possible to play a zombie game with that alone.

[Kromey]

Originally Posted by Stripe

You sound like a GURPS player! :)

I think maybe I was born to be!

Originally Posted by Stripe

Yes. We are well aware of this. The prejudice goes both ways in equal amounts.

The difference is, we're right! ;)

Is it really prejudice if you're right? Isn't it just fact at that point? ;)

Originally Posted by Stripe

Don't. Not if you want your players to enjoy the game. Remember why you chose to go with GURPS? The freedom? That goes for players more than anything. In fact, it's the #1 selling point of GURPS and you're getting ready to completely cut it out.

Let them play the characters they desire. If they want to be Rambo, let them. If they want to be Dirty Hairy, let them. They will have way more fun than if you force them, pigeon-hole them into what your idea is of what you think their characters somehow are supposed to be. That's very restricting. And, they'll want to break free.

That's totally fair. But how do you reconcile this with bringing pre-generated characters to the table so that all the players have to do is start rolling the dice? Don't I have to bring full characters to the table?

I mean, I fully intend to give them the freedom to be who they want to be when-and-if we play an actual campaign using GURPS. But a simple blackboxed one-shot requires that I bring in fully-made characters, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by Stripe

I suggest a power level of 100 or 150-point characters with a -50 or -75-point disadvantage limit (p. 11 of Basic Set).

See Power Level, p. 487 of the Basic Set for a discussion of starting points.

Part of the reason for the lower points limit was to make it a little easier on me to build all these characters beforehand. But the bigger reason is that, at least according to GURPS Lite, 25-50 is "average", and 50-100 is your star athletes and such. Which seems like where I'd want to put your run-of-the-mill survivor -- at least in the early days -- of a zombie apocalypse.

Originally Posted by Stripe

Below is my fantasy zombie template which has been play-tested extensively. To make it a contemporary one, just remove its Dependency to magic and its susceptibility to spells.

[snip pure awesomeness]

That awesome, and pretty much exactly where I wanted to go with my zombies, I think! I'll have to go over it in more detail when I have the books and can actually figure out what half this stuff even means, but thanks!

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

I think it would be a mistake to convert powers directly to GURPS. IIRC, many powers do things like "grant an extra healing surge" or "slide enemy three space".

Sorry, I wasn't clear -- I meant translate over the concept of powers, not a direct translation of the powers themselves. Because, you're right, easily 75% of that stuff just wouldn't translate at all!

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Sigh. I'm afraid it's not cheap switching game systems.

True enough. But the thing is that we're not switching, at least not yet. We're just giving GURPS a test drive. GURPS Lite (which I have downloaded, yup) doesn't feel like quite enough from a GM's perspective, which is why I've already bought the Basic Set -- sinking $50 already into what very well could turn out to be a single one-shot session!

If, however, my group does express an interest in actually playing a full campaign using GURPS, then I have no problem buying more books -- money well spent, as far as I'm concerned. It's just the thought of sinking even more money into something we may never touch again that makes me shy away from buying e.g. Horror right now.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Kromey

For this game, though, they'll be happy to just get to RP; in fact, my group is real big on RP, and more than once has complained that D&D 4e feels like it restricts RP because the game focuses almost exclusively on combat (or at least feels that way). Compare this to the older 3.5e, where the rules went well beyond combat to handle all sorts of social interactions...

I get you - although I felt that even 3.5 was combat-obsessed.

You'll note that zombies don't offer much in the way of roleplaying opportunities; if you want RP beyond party infighting then you'll need to have them encounter other survivors (who may want to team up, or scare the PCs away from their hiding places, or take the PCs stuff by threat or force...)

However, I have a set goal here: Demonstrate the freedom of GURPS, and the not-as-complex-as-you've-been-told-ness of the system. If I make some mistakes running the game, oh well.

Fair enough.

Standard newbie advice, then: GURPS does have a lot of rules. Most of them are only appropriate for certain types of campaigns or settings. Don't try to use them all at the same time. That's how you keep the system simple. "Roll 3d under a modified skill or attribute" handles almost everything from combat to lockpicking to lying well and it's hard to forget.

About the characters: since they're pregens, they don't really have to have the same point value, just the same amount of useful points. If you've got a character who's an artist (probably won't, but it's just an example) then his Artist skill isn't likely to do him much good, so don't count it in his point total. Your exec might be rich and have skills for running a company, but it's not going to do him much good in a zombie apocalypse, so don't worry about those either; if he ends up being a 115 point character but only 50 points of that are good for anything he's likely to do, it's not really a balance issue.

Likewise, don't even worry about point totals for NPCs. Just give them the traits you think they should have. The only time you need to know an NPC's point total is if it's going to be someone's Ally or Enemy, or a template for a shapeshifter, etc. Remember that you can't compare point totals to figure out who's more badass, anyway; a 25-point thug could mop the alley with a 300-point accounting genius, and a 25-point petty bureaucrat is perfectly capable of stonewalling a 300-point ex-Special Forces mercenary, unless he's willing to use violence against City Hall...

This is exactly why I'm avoiding a fantasy setting for this first introduction -- I want to try to divorce them from their pre-conceived notions born from D&D, and let GURPS shine as a system that can do whatever they want to do. And they like zombies. And zombie apocalypses. Every last person in my group (myself included) has given serious thought to what our plan would be should the zombies start to rise. So this seems an ideal introduction to me -- something they'll immediately get into, while simultaneously being something that D&D simply can't do, at least not effectively, and certainly not without introducing so many house rules that it becomes for all intents and purposes a whole new system entirely!

Right. I think this is an excellent idea. You don't need to use GURPS just to play D&D; you already have D&D for that.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Kromey

That's totally fair. But how do you reconcile this with bringing pre-generated characters to the table so that all the players have to do is start rolling the dice? Don't I have to bring full characters to the table?

Well before running your game, talk to the players about what kind of characters they'd like to play (mechanic, kung-fu master, hobo with a shotgun, epic accountant, etc.), then build those characters. They get characters without having to get their hands dirty with the rules, but they also get what they want.

Originally Posted by Kromey

But the bigger reason is that, at least according to GURPS Lite, 25-50 is "average", and 50-100 is your star athletes and such. Which seems like where I'd want to put your run-of-the-mill survivor -- at least in the early days -- of a zombie apocalypse.

The problem with running "average" people in adventure scenarios is that adventures are difficult and dangerous, and average people caught up in them tend to fail and die. That's realistic, but it may not be the kind of fun you're after. If you want all sneaking and hiding all the time, average people are the ticket. If you want to see some zombie-splattering action, crank up the points. Also, consider metagame-ish advantages like Luck and Common Sense, which allow PCs to be apparently average but a little harder to kill.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Kromey

Hello all.

Hey.

Originally Posted by Kromey

I've been spending a lot of time in recent weeks eagerly reading everything I can about GURPS, including the Lite rules. I have ordered my own copy of the Basic Set books, which are currently on their way to me. I am for all other purposes a complete GURPS virgin.

I am currently GMing a D&D 4e campaign (using a home brew setting based loosely on the old 3.5e setting and the events of a previous epic-level campaign I played in, with several updates drawn from the 4e setting), however I'm finding myself growing more and more... well, bored with 4e. I just feel limited, pigeon-holed into WotC's ideas of what characters somehow are supposed to be. It's very restricting. And I want to break free.

Congratulations!

Originally Posted by Kromey

trying to avoid things like the police office or trained soldier (everyone else would be left bored while he mops up the zombies), or the asthmatic accountant (who'd be left bored while everyone else mops up the zombies)

Yeah, I have to agree with Xplo that you're overestimating the police and military a bit here, especially if the scenario robs them of their organized support structure (which you can obligingly not charge them for, to make things fair). If the other PCs have lots of points sunk into things that probably won't be useful in the game, just give the cop or soldier a non-combat specialty and you're good to go. Piloting a helicopter is a good choice for either, for example, because it starts out useless but sets up a mini-goal (ie: find a helicopter and fuel) that benefits the whole group if resolved.

Originally Posted by Kromey

The taxi driver. Not the safest of professions, she carries a Springfield Armory XD-40 and spends enough time on the range to be competent, but not exceptional.

Though I hesitate to belittle the average taxi driver's armed and dangerous status, this is only the beginning of what I bring to the table when the zombies come. Dangerous stunt driving? I did that last night for seven bucks. Area Knowledge? I know the shortcuts, the little quirks ("Why yes, there is a green building with solar power and well water in this neighborhood!"), and the places where you can hide a whole Crown Victoria from the ground and from the air. I know the area. Can your zombie apocalypse crew afford to not have a taxi driver?

Originally Posted by Kromey

* The outdoor enthusiast. She spends more time in the wilderness than the city, and was only caught here by the worst of luck. She carries her trusty machete and knows how to use it.
* The fireman. Strong and tough, at some point in this crisis he grabbed a fire axe, and is certainly no slouch with it.

I'd drop a couple of points into melee weapons for these guys, at the most, and focus on their general athleticism when it comes to survival ability. Both are probably in great shape, with high HT, Fit, and zombie-evasion skills like Climbing.

Originally Posted by Kromey

* The martial arts enthusiast. Winner of numerous local competitions, her fists are the only weapons she needs. (Not really sure how this one will stack up against the others at this points level, so I may fudge it some and give her a few more points than the others.)

Why give it more points? If the concept doesn't work in the setting, it doesn't work in the setting.

Alternate Take: Martial Arts would be a good combat sideline for somebody who has another main specialty, provided that they specialize in a style that emphasizes improvised weapons. In a post-apocalyptic landscape littered with junk, you're never disarmed.

Originally Posted by Kromey

The two gun-wielding characters will be low-ish on ammo -- each has a full magazine loaded to begin with, but only enough spare ammo for a single reload and a tad more (the taxi driver does have a fully-loaded spare magazine, plus a small handful of loose ammo; the shotgun is equipped with a shell holder on the stock, plus he's got a few more in his pocket) -- to balance their relatively high lethality and ranged-ness against the rest of the characters. Plus I intend to avoid encounters in areas where the two ranged characters can bring down the zombies before they get close enough to threaten everyone.

If you really want to privilege melee combat / people who are not marksmen, you could go one of the routes suggested in All Flesh Must Be Eaten and make the zombies incredibly sensitive and responsive to sudden loud noises, such as gunshots...

For Additional Character Ideas: Check this thread out.

[Kromey]

Originally Posted by Xplo

You'll note that zombies don't offer much in the way of roleplaying opportunities; if you want RP beyond party infighting then you'll need to have them encounter other survivors (who may want to team up, or scare the PCs away from their hiding places, or take the PCs stuff by threat or force...)

True dat. Which is exactly why they will indeed face other obstacles as they progress through the city -- opportunistic thugs looking for an easy score, holed-up survivors intent on refusing entry to their shelter and sharing their resources, a fire raging out of control over several city blocks requiring alternate routes to be found, etc.

Not everything is about the zombies, they're just the central theme.

Originally Posted by Xplo

About the characters: since they're pregens, they don't really have to have the same point value, just the same amount of useful points. If you've got a character who's an artist (probably won't, but it's just an example) then his Artist skill isn't likely to do him much good, so don't count it in his point total. Your exec might be rich and have skills for running a company, but it's not going to do him much good in a zombie apocalypse, so don't worry about those either; if he ends up being a 115 point character but only 50 points of that are good for anything he's likely to do, it's not really a balance issue.

Huh, I hadn't thought of that. I've read again and again about how point totals don't really mean jack for comparing two characters, but it never occurred to me that that could likewise mean that the point totals don't really matter for the PCs themselves, so long as relative ability in the game is equivalent.

Originally Posted by Xplo

Likewise, don't even worry about point totals for NPCs. Just give them the traits you think they should have. The only time you need to know an NPC's point total is if it's going to be someone's Ally or Enemy, or a template for a shapeshifter, etc. Remember that you can't compare point totals to figure out who's more badass, anyway; a 25-point thug could mop the alley with a 300-point accounting genius, and a 25-point petty bureaucrat is perfectly capable of stonewalling a 300-point ex-Special Forces mercenary, unless he's willing to use violence against City Hall...

Yup. Which is why my initial zombie was just a small set of stats, completely devoid of any points total, and my plan is to just have them do what I need/want them to, and to heck with trying to figure out how to represent all that in RAW! If they have the spider-like ability to just crawl up walls, well, they have the spider-like ability to just crawl up walls -- no need to figure out how many points that costs, unlike a certain other system where such a thing dramatically affects a monster's CR or XP total, but never in a way that actually makes sense!

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Well before running your game, talk to the players about what kind of characters they'd like to play (mechanic, kung-fu master, hobo with a shotgun, epic accountant, etc.), then build those characters. They get characters without having to get their hands dirty with the rules, but they also get what they want.

Oh. Duh! Of course! Also takes some of the onus off of me to invent all these characters entirely on my own!

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

The problem with running "average" people in adventure scenarios is that adventures are difficult and dangerous, and average people caught up in them tend to fail and die. That's realistic, but it may not be the kind of fun you're after. If you want all sneaking and hiding all the time, average people are the ticket. If you want to see some zombie-splattering action, crank up the points. Also, consider metagame-ish advantages like Luck and Common Sense, which allow PCs to be apparently average but a little harder to kill.

That's actually exactly the fun I'm after! :-) The zombie apocalypse is a very dangerous place to be, where people will die, but games always seem to make light of that fact.

Of course, I doubt we'll go quite this gritty for a full-blown campaign, but it suits my purposes for this game.

My books aren't here yet, so I don't know what Luck and Common Sense actually do, but I've got a good idea, I think, from reading other forum posts around the interwebs. And once I do have those books and know what they are, they very likely could find their way into these characters...

[Anders]

If you have characters in niches (for a DF game, things like healer, tank, wizard, etc.) then character points can vary widely. Sure, the other guys are 400 points - but none of them know magic, so your 200-point character still has a chance to shine.

Edit: I'd actually price Serendipity above Luck for this kind of scenario. "What a coincidence, I found a loaded shotgun!"

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Kromey

Huh, I hadn't thought of that. I've read again and again about how point totals don't really mean jack for comparing two characters, but it never occurred to me that that could likewise mean that the point totals don't really matter for the PCs themselves, so long as relative ability in the game is equivalent.

Another GURPS author once described the character point (fairly accurately, I think) as a measurement not of ability, but of player choice. It would follow fairly naturally that if they're not making the individual choices, the points don't matter quite so much.

Originally Posted by Kromey

That's actually exactly the fun I'm after! :-)

Then carry on, sir! Be sure to come up with picturesque descriptions of victims being torn apart.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Kromey

* The martial arts enthusiast. Winner of numerous local competitions, her fists are the only weapons she needs. (Not really sure how this one will stack up against the others at this points level, so I may fudge it some and give her a few more points than the others.)

Other people have mentioned that this is a bad choice in a zombie apocalypse. While they are correct that hitting things with your fists and feet does tend to open you up to being bitten, it can still be a pretty fun character. I played one in a Zombie Apocalypse one-shot a while ago with 25-point characters; mine was the only one with half-decent combat skills (I think she had 20 points invested in Karate, for a Karate skill of 14), and she completely rocked with booting zombies in the head or knees. Just punching them in the torso is a terrible idea, but if she can get enough damage to do Zombie HP/2 damage reliably, she could probably dominate at disabling zombies. She was also a really fast runner, which was very useful at not getting hit. Making her useful did depend a lot on exploiting telegraphic attacks (since zombies were always using AoAs) and targeted attacks, though.

That said, improvised weapons are probably more generally useful, especially ones that can do sw damage.