[MA] What is this move?

[Donny Brook]

So, in GURPS terms, what are we looking at here?
(Watch for slo-mo later in the reel.)

[evileeyore]

A nice front flip axe kick....

I'm tempted to call it a Jumping Axe Kick with a failed DX/Acrobatics roll to land.

[zoncxs]

That is a do mawashi geri, a rolling kick.

I would combine axe kick with spinning kick with the following addition:

Success or failure, you fall.
Target as an additional -2 to defense.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

A nice front flip axe kick....

I'm tempted to call it a Jumping Axe Kick with a failed DX/Acrobatics roll to land.

Calling it an Acrobatic Feint followed by a Jumping Axe Kick (and with the two bought up as a Combination) would make sense. Rather than a failed roll, I'd be willing to say the character is giving up the chance to land on his feet in exchange for focusing more on successfully pulling off the attack. Under the technique design system in MA, an automatic fall is good for a +4. Actually, looking at that, rather than a Feint-and-Attack Combination, it might be worthwhile to build it something like this:

Acrobatic Axe Kick (Hard)
Default: Prerequisite -6; cannot exceed prerequisite skill
Prerequisite: Brawling or Karate; character must also have Acrobatics
This is a rapidly-executed forward flip that is difficult to defend against and strikes with enhanced force. It is a special option for Committed or All-Out Attack - use the rules below instead of the normal rules for those maneuvers. In either case, a successful Acrobatics roll is required to use the Technique. Succeed or fail, the character will fall prone after the attack. The target may Block at no penalty, Dodge at -1, or Parry at -2.

As a Committed Attack, the attack does thrust+3 damage, or thrust-1 and +2/die if better. As an All-Out Attack, the attack does thrust+4 damage, or thrust +2/die if better. The character suffers normal defense penalties for having made a Committed Attack Kick or All Out Attack, in addition to being prone.

Build - Committed (Dedicated) Attack +2; Kick -2; +3 damage -6; -2 Parry -4; -1 Dodge -1; Auto-Fall +4; Acrobatic setup roll +1 = total -6
All Out (Dedicated) Attack +4; Kick -2; +4 damage -8; -2 Parry -4; -1 Dodge -1; Auto-Fall +4; Acrobatic setup roll +1 = total -6

Optionally, the Technique defaults to only -4 for characters who have already bought Kick up to Prereq+0.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

That is a do mawashi geri, a rolling kick.

Thanks!

From my reading there are three variations, all are Axe Kicks/Spinning Kicks:

The Forward Roll (Tate Do Mawashi Kaiten Geri), Side Roll (Yoko Do Mawashi Kaiten Geri), and the Flipping Roll (Ura Do Mawashi Kaiten Geri).

For all three I'd literally build it as a Spinning Axe Kick, so you could just add the default penalties and the benes together, however the latter two do more damage and include a fall chance or auto-fall, the Forward Roll ends with you on your feet facing away from your foe having "stepped past them".

So, my take...

Forward Roll Spinning Axe Kick (Hard)
Defaults: Karate skill-4.
Prerequisite: Karate; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

This technique involves a forward roll in which you throw one or both legs out to hit your opponent in the face, head, or upper torso as you roll past them to end standing. After a successful execution of the kick, you will have moved 1 hex forward, so it requires one hex of Movement be available (either as a Step or part of Movement) to be used with the attack. It is a special option for use with All-Out Attack or Committed Attack.

This uses the rules for Spinning Attack, Martial Arts pgs 79-80.

As a Committed Attack, you are at +2 to the Spinning Attack Quick Contest and to hit and you do normal damage for your kick plus skill bonuses. It leaves you unable to retreat or Dodge and at -3 to Blocks and Parries. These penalties last until your next turn.

As an All-Out Attack you’re at no bonus to the Quick Contest and to hit, however, your damage is at thrust+1 crushing damage - or thrust at +1 per two dice, if better - plus skill bonuses. You have no defenses.


Side Roll Spinning Axe Kick (Hard)
Defaults: Karate skill-5.
Prerequisite: Karate; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

This technique involves a 'sideways' roll in which you throw one or both legs out to hit your opponent in the upper body (face, head, upper torso, or arms) as you roll past them to end standing. After a successful execution of the kick, you will have moved 1 hex to either side of your opponent, so it requires one hex of Movement be available (either as a Step or part of Movement) to be used with the attack. It is a special option for use with All-Out Attack or Committed Attack. If your kick misses or your foe successfully defends, the roll to avoid falling is against DX-2.

This uses the rules for Spinning Attack, Martial Arts pgs 79-80.

As a Committed Attack, you are at no bonus or penalty to the Spinning Attack Quick Contest and to hit, however your damage is at thrust+1 crushing damage - or thrust at +1 per two dice, if better - plus skill bonuses. It leaves you unable to retreat or Dodge and at -3 to Blocks and Parries. These penalties last until your next turn.

As an All-Out Attack you’re at -2 to the Quick Contest and to hit, however your kick does thrust+2 – or thrust at +1 per die, if better – plus skill bonuses. Hit or miss, you have no defenses until your next turn!


Jumping Spinning Axe Kick (Hard)
Defaults: Karate skill-7.
Prerequisite: Karate; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

This technique involves a flip in which you throw one or both legs out to hit your opponent in the upper body (face, head, upper torso, or arms) as you flip/midair roll and fall to the ground. It is a special option for use with All-Out Attack.

This uses the rules for Spinning Attack, Martial Arts pgs 79-80.

You’re at -2 to skill for both the Spinning Attack Quick Contest and to hit. However, your damage is at +4 or +2 per die, whichever is better. You have no defenses and are prone.




Optionally... make it one Technique, Mawashi Kaiten Geri, Default: Karate -4, and note the following variations and their penalties from this technique; Tate Kaiten (Forward Roll) at -0, Yoko Kaiten (Side Roll) at -1 (Committed Attack) to -3 (All-Out Attack), and Ura Kaiten (Flipping Roll) at -5. The Technique cannot be improved more than 4 levels, so the Flipping Roll will always be at a -5, which fits with the descriptions of it being a poor choice for any but masters (and a risky one for them).

Also note, these techniques do note take Hit Location penalties into account...

[Plane]

The commentators called it a front roll but it looked like more of a side roll to me, obviously some front too, but more side than front.

So if you get a bonus to attack techniques if you automatically fall after performing them with them, can you also get a bonus to defense techniques that way?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Plane

So if you get a bonus to attack techniques if you automatically fall after performing them with them, can you also get a bonus to defense techniques that way?

In melee? I don't know that I'd allow it... add to that I can't think of any defensive melee techniques that thematically support the idea of ending prone.

I suppose I could allow Drop or Dive for Cover against melee attacks, but it doesn't seem optimal and is no better than just Retreating. Granted, if there is nowhere to retreat to, Dropping might be be better than no Retreat.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

In melee? I don't know that I'd allow it... add to that I can't think of any defensive melee techniques that thematically support the idea of ending prone.

I see it like the difference between doing a controlled crouch (sub-max speeds) to duck undersomething vs an all-out crouch (maximal speed) where you're not worrying about how you'll slow yourself down afterward.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I suppose I could allow Drop or Dive for Cover against melee attacks, but it doesn't seem optimal and is no better than just Retreating. Granted, if there is nowhere to retreat to, Dropping might be be better than no Retreat.

This is basically "Dive" on MA123, but if taking a "one type of retreat only" approach, there's rarely any incentive to do this when you can do a Retreat (the 3 hexes that move you away from opponent) for a better bonus or a Sideslip (the 2 hexes that keep you equidistant from opponent) for the same bonus, neither of which involve reducing your posture.

Even if all 5 hexes were blocked, I think I'd rather do a Slip (closer to opponent) for a +1 to dodge, or even no retreat at all, than Dive for the +2 since that means -3 to any future defences until I use a Change Posture to stop Lying down. If someone is attacking you in melee that's a death sentence unless it happens to be some kind of "I can only swing this sword once and then it will vanish" or "my allies are 1 second away" situation.

If you could combine retreats (Diving Retreat, Diving Sideslip, Diving Slip) it'd be more appealing because then you not only get a better bonus but also get some distance from your opponent that they'll need to close before attacking you, which might give you time to do the Change Posture required to get standing again.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

In melee? I don't know that I'd allow it... add to that I can't think of any defensive melee techniques that thematically support the idea of ending prone.

Folks do "sprawl" against an attempted grapple, usually in response to someone trying to grapple their legs. You shoot your feet back and try and fall on top of the other guy.

But I think that's a bit of 'an exception that proves the rule.' By and large, you want mobility on defense, and throwing yourself to the ground in response to a hand-to-hand attack is of limited value.

That being said, I've seen folks purposefully lie down if they're well-versed in BJJ, though I'm not sure how viable that would be in a situation where someone might really try and KILL you. I'd defer to a practitioner on the wisdom and validity here.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Folks do "sprawl" against an attempted grapple, usually in response to someone trying to grapple their legs. You shoot your feet back and try and fall on top of the other guy.

But I think that's a bit of 'an exception that proves the rule.' By and large, you want mobility on defense, and throwing yourself to the ground in response to a hand-to-hand attack is of limited value.

*still reviewing TG40's Sprawling Parry to MA119's Sprawling to try and remember the distinction*

If someone was trying to bite you in the leg, I can see shooting them back and trying to fall on top of them as well, especially since bites end in a free grapple if they do hit.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

That being said, I've seen folks purposefully lie down if they're well-versed in BJJ, though I'm not sure how viable that would be in a situation where someone might really try and KILL you. I'd defer to a practitioner on the wisdom and validity here.

The primary benefit there is probably that nobody can get to your rear without flipping you over. Which would be a lot more valuable if not for the Run-Around Attack rule making ending up in someone's rear pointless unless you can grapple them so they can't turn.

The ignoring -2 when using Kick Attack and ignoring -2 to hit the feet/legs (MA99) benefits of Lying Face Up are kind of cancelled out by the inherent -4 to attack you suffer for most people, but if (MA73) this is bought off by pumping the Ground Fighting technique, it could then become an advantage for trying to kick someone in the leg.

Plus... couldn't you take Technique Mastery on Ground Fighting and then buy it up so you get +4 on all your attacks made from the ground? It'd take a total of 10 points to get there ;)

In that situation, even though it's not RAW, it might be interesting to turn the progressive negation of defence penalties into defence bonuses? I'd say you lose all penalties soon as you buy Technique Mastery (count it as a point invested in the skill) and then could get +1 for skill+2 and +2 for skill+4?

There is a -1 damage for kicking from the ground, but on the other hand, even though it doesn't say to ignore making a DX roll on a miss, the effects of getting a "fall down" result when you're already on your back are bound to be either minimal or nothing.

The big downside is of course that the standing guy can circle you and strike at your upper body to nullify the reach advantage a kick gives until you rotate your lower body in their direction with a facing change.