GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Adventure 1: Mirror of the Fire Demon

[apoc527]

Originally Posted by Steven Marsh

Which is to say, a dollar-vote for Mirror of the Fire Demon is also a dollar-vote for more adventures. :-)

I don't play DF, I just started my first GURPS 4th Edition campaign (we literally did chargen...first session is Monday if the snow here in Seattle doesn't cause a problem), which is a post-apocalyptic variant of an X-com styled game, but I think I'll buy this anyway, just to try to get more adventures written!

By the way, I wonder why adventures don't sell well in this GURPSian context. My friend has TONS of CoC adventures--it seems like adventures and campaigns were mostly what Chaosium sold!

[Pragmatic]

Originally Posted by apoc527

By the way, I wonder why adventures don't sell well in this GURPSian context. My friend has TONS of CoC adventures--it seems like adventures and campaigns were mostly what Chaosium sold!

GURPS is a roleplaying SYSTEM, not a roleplaying GAME.

What works for one group, won't work for another. Two groups playing a fantasy game may have "grim'n'gritty" versus "superheroic." And that's just the groups playing fantasy. You also have supers, pulp, historical, sci-fi, etc.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by apoc527

By the way, I wonder why adventures don't sell well in this GURPSian context. My friend has TONS of CoC adventures--it seems like adventures and campaigns were mostly what Chaosium sold!

It's fundamentally the law of diminishing returns. All CoC Keepers have got the basic setting of 1930s Cthulhu in the rulebook, so you can write adventures and campaigns tailored to that setting knowing you've got a wide audience.

GURPS opens the doors to any game setting you want to play. Although a nod is given to Infinite Worlds in the core rulebooks, the GMs using that will still be a minority.

So, this adventure is aimed at the largest target, going by sales of other products, the Dungeon Fantasy players.

There's been a lot of discussion on these boards about this. I'm in the camp that would love to see self-contained one-shots or campaigns, as I like switching around and running short stories for my players, but I know that I'm in a minority. It does seem that most GURPS GMs prefer material that they can slot into their existing campaigns, or toolkit resources that are widely applicable.

Graham

[Steven Marsh]

Originally Posted by Graham

I'm in the camp that would love to see self-contained one-shots or campaigns, as I like switching around and running short stories for my players, but I know that I'm in a minority. It does seem that most GURPS GMs prefer material that they can slot into their existing campaigns, or toolkit resources that are widely applicable.

Yep, the conclusion I've more-or-less reached is that a significant percentage -- perhaps most -- folks who say they want more adventures really mean, "I want adventures I can drop into my current homebrew campaign with next-to-no effort."

GURPS Big Lizzie and GURPS Lair of the Fat Man -- both ready-to-use adventures -- are among the lowest-selling GURPS Fourth Edition supplements on e23. Similarly, the issues of the latest volume of Pyramid that have focused on adventures (Pyramid #3/14: Martial Arts, Pyramid #3/23: Action Adventures, and Pyramid #3/32: Fears of Days Past) have been the lowest sellers. (I find the latter especially disappointing, since I think there's some really neat stuff in those Pyramid issues . . .)

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Steven Marsh

GURPS Big Lizzie and GURPS Lair of the Fat Man -- both ready-to-use adventures -- are among the lowest-selling GURPS Fourth Edition supplements on e23. Similarly, the issues of the latest volume of Pyramid that have focused on adventures (Pyramid #3/14: Martial Arts, Pyramid #3/23: Action Adventures, and Pyramid #3/32: Fears of Days Past) have been the lowest sellers. (I find the latter especially disappointing, since I think there's some really neat stuff in those Pyramid issues . . .)

I think part of the reason Big Lizzie and Lair of the Fat Man are low-selling is because they're incredibly specific. They only work in extremely specific settings and game types, meaning you can't slot them into any pre-existing campaign at all - you pretty much have to create an entire campaign specifically to run those adventures. That also applies to some of the Pyramid adventures, I believe (an Action adventure about giant, magical flying fish?), but I haven't looked too closely at them.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Langy

I think part of the reason Big Lizzie and Lair of the Fat Man are low-selling is because they're incredibly specific. They only work in extremely specific settings and game types, meaning you can't slot them into any pre-existing campaign at all - you pretty much have to create an entire campaign specifically to run those adventures.

Which highlights the difference between us: I'm in the minority for whom that really is not only not a problem, but is a positive advantage.

I have no trouble generating material for my ongoing campaigns, and in fact I prefer not to feed in any specific adventures found elsewhere. But I love throwing something completely fresh at my players as a one off adventure, and they're happy to play new characters just for that game.

My main problem with both those (excellent) adventures is that they really need four or more players, and most of the time I can only get two or three together. When my whole group meets we've got a long list of other stuff that they want to play.

Both adventures would also be much improved if they had a set of pre-generated characters attached, precisely because they are so clearly one-shots.

Graham

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Beoferret

This does make a lot of sense, though there are several regular authors who have run campaigns in a number of settings who I'd hope are trustworthy enough to produce some good material with only a small amount of oversight.

Actually a good place for adventures is Pyramid. They need to be short so its not as massive an undertaking but Pyramid already has some and an article that is an adventure wont be very long.
EDIT: I see Pyramid entered the conversation on page 5 of the thread :)
I am one of those unlikely to buy an adventurer and use it. What I will buy an adventurer for is if it supplies me with resources or ideas I can mine for other campaigns or my own adventures.
I do not want to see adventures become a place for new rules so people have to buy them just to get a new rule or advantage. I will accept that happening sometimes but be very annoyed if it became the norm.
However new monsters and loot are perfectly fine. I intend to buy this adventure based on what I have heard and know I will never run it. The monsters are a major reason for that and note that the Bounding turtles I like are even in the preview PDF! But I want o vote with my dollars for more of this kind of thing so will buy it even though I already read that and got the idea of the N encounter table from the preview.
The reasoning for CoC and frankly most other games having lots of adventurers is the same, the rules are built around a setting so most people who bought the rules will be able to use the adventures. Also the adventures are often much easier to make then new rules supplements or require less creativity then new monster and loot splat books. And many were based on the authors own game, further cutting into the overhead to make them.
So you had lower overhead and a higher percentage of your audience able to use them for their games.
For adventures to do really well you would have to write them for a line that was as popular as most other companies entire game system.
So Basic + DF has to be as popular as RQ, DQ, or AD&D to sell an adventure as well as the same one would for the other guys.

I dont see adventures for GURPS ever being as popular for this. Another thing is most GURPS GMs are drawn to the different settings and options so our games tend to be very different even from each other.

So to those who want o write or see more adventurers waht would work?
IMHO An adventure that fit a popular line and was generic enough it could work in many settings and changes to an individual campaign using that line. DF, Action and MH are good possibilities, as are Traveler and InNomine but Space, Martial Arts and Supers are out for now. Though Supers do have a lot of flexibility in popping things in and out becasue of the genre.
The other thing is if it added stuff that made it worthwhile to buy just for mining things but did not annoy the core audience by burying new must have rules or advantages.

The Space Atlas series was a good example I think of a successful GURPS adventure series by the way. Heck so are the IW settings.

[Athanbeli]

Originally Posted by Langy

I think part of the reason Big Lizzie and Lair of the Fat Man are low-selling is because they're incredibly specific.

I own both of them, will never play them (perhaps fat man...). They're an interesting read nonetheless, and I'm always in search for Gurps worked examples of any kind.
What I find unpalatable in them: excessive tongue-in-cheek-ness, dubious stats (SM+3 creatures with ST 6?!?). Also, knowing that they're not new material (just updates to 4th ed.) does not help.
All in all, they look like half-hearted attempts to me.

[Greg 1]

The generic nature of GURPS is indeed a problem here, I think.

I love Mirror of the Fire Demon and I loved Cyberpunk Adventures back in the day, but in general, I give adventures a miss. The worlds they are set in generally just don't fit the worlds I want to run.

I like adventures, but they have to be the right adventures for me (in which case, they won't be the right adventures for other folks).

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Actually a good place for adventures is Pyramid. They need to be short so its not as massive an undertaking but Pyramid already has some and an article that is an adventure wont be very long.

Personally, I don't find Pyramid, in its current incarnation, to be very good for adventures at all. There's enough for what would be a big encounter or an overview, but not a full adventure, unless it takes up about a third of the issue. In that case, it has to be good, since it is crowding out other content.