03-06-2018, 12:41 AM | #31 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
|
Re: TFT and GURPS - where is the line between them?
Quote:
But things change on offense, as you note, where TFT hoses the armored fighter while MtM/GURPS doesn't. Got it.
__________________
T Bone GURPS stuff and more at the Games Diner: http://www.gamesdiner.com Twitter: @Gamesdiner | RSS: here ⬅︎ Updated RSS link | This forum: Site updates thread (occasionally updated) (Latest goods on site: GLAIVE Mini levels up to v2.4. Update to melee weapon design tool, with more example weapons and commentary.) |
|
03-06-2018, 03:18 AM | #32 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
|
Re: TFT and GURPS - where is the line between them?
Quote:
So what does this mean in terms to no-armor TFT vs must-amour in MtM? On average a 1d6 weapon will deliver approximately 3.5 hits of damage. At ST 14, an unarmed TFT'er can take 4 good average whacks before he is dead; and can take 3 average attacks and still stays above the dreaded -3DX near-death penalty. However, if we add-in MtM's "Cutting Bonus" to the very same blows, those 3.5 hits, become increased by 50% to 5.25 hits per attack. Now, my same TFT figure can only sustain 2 average Mtm attacks, and the TFT figure is only 3 ST from Death - which brings with it special -DX doom-n-gloom in TFT. Not good; but wait! It gets even worse,.. If we add-in MtM's "Impaling Bonus" to the very same blows, those 3.5 hits become increased by 100% to 7 hits per attack. Now my same TFT figure can only sustain 2 attacks and he is DEAD MEAT. Sustaining 4 attacks on average in TFT, falling to 2 attacks in MtM. Cutting or Impaling, either way you cut it (sorry, for the pun) MtM is murder on TFT figures. So as you can see, MtM just doesn't work for my TFT Fantasy Characters in my vision of Cidri; because MtM is too real and deadly for them without the armor. "Yes, you need armor" - SJ; MtM sidebar, P. 15 "No, I need TFT" - JK; Summer 1986 Armed with the math above, if you go back and re-read my post #22, it should be "A clear as an unmuddied lake, sir. As clear as an azure sky of deepest summer. You can rely on me." - Alexander DeLarge #655321, 'A Clockwork Orange' 1971 Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-07-2018 at 11:30 PM. |
|
03-06-2018, 09:32 AM | #33 |
Join Date: Dec 2017
|
Re: TFT and GURPS - where is the line between them?
These are important game-design issues, but it is worth considering another side to the question of armored vs. unarmored combatants: versimilitude. No combat system is 'realistic' but there is a big difference between games with combat systems that represent important features of reality and those that don't. And one important feature of reality is that armor is very effective and very important, and without it you will have a good chance of being debilitated by one blow from a weapon like a sword, spear or bow.
There are a lot of games that fiddle the probabilities of various damage outcomes to enhance player survivability, but end up creating a game where lethal or debilitating injuries are impossible or very unlikely. For instance, you can't hunt deer with a bow in D&D, or most other games, because no single attack will debilitate them, so they will just run away after you hit them. Not some of the time - 100 % of the time. There are many examples like this, and they are really frustrating. How stupid do you have to be to make a combat system in which it is literally impossible for a person or person-sized creature to suffer a debilitating injury from a crossbow, spear or sword? Hard to say, but apparently that is how stupid most of us are, because that is how most of our games work. So, when I deliberate revisions and house rules, I usually am trying to nudge us closer to reality rather than farther away. |
03-06-2018, 12:06 PM | #34 | ||
Join Date: May 2015
|
Re: TFT and GURPS - where is the line between them?
Quote:
Quote:
What do you think of allowing engaged figures to move away but suffer a free extra attack from the figure(s) they disengage? |
||
03-06-2018, 12:32 PM | #35 | |
Join Date: May 2015
|
Re: TFT and GURPS - where is the line between them?
Quote:
Consider: * Unarmored figures in TFT can also be taken out in 1 or 2 hits if they get hit with a weapon that does 2 or 3 dice damage (or they hit you for double or triple damage). * In GURPS, the active defenses mean many attacks don't do any damage at all, and not getting hit by defending and by clever use of movement, reach, waiting, etc., there are more opportunities in GURPS for an unarmored fighter to avoid being hit at all. (It does however help if you use 4e or house rules that don't have armor passive defense stack with active defenses.) * TFT gives unarmored fighters few ways to avoid being hurt at all (avoid engagement or take out your foes before they hit you). |
|
03-06-2018, 02:23 PM | #36 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
|
Re: TFT and GURPS - where is the line between them?
Quote:
Bottom-line: MtM is just not for me, thanks; I am a TFT-guy. Yes, attacks; being the singular variable damage generated during another figures attack-phase; which I averaged to 3.5 hits per attack at 1d6. BTW, are you still running that joint on the outskirts of the Village of Bendwyn? I had a great time last time I was there, and uh, sorry about all the, uh,... damage; but had it been an MtM party, the damage to your place would have been 50%-100% heavier ;-) Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-06-2018 at 03:59 PM. |
|
03-06-2018, 04:05 PM | #37 | ||
Join Date: May 2015
|
Re: TFT and GURPS - where is the line between them?
Quote:
Quote:
Why yes, Skarg's is ever-popular and going strong in my original campaign (though I haven't run it in a long time). Don't worry about the damage. Skarg learned long ago how to capitalize on nightly mayhem. In my campaign, Skarg had a second bar-room built so when one gets too damaged, he can keep the other open while the damaged one gets repaired. And of course there's a large graveyard. |
||
03-06-2018, 05:45 PM | #38 | |
Join Date: Feb 2018
|
Re: TFT and GURPS - where is the line between them?
Quote:
Our experience, which maybe I didn't make clear enough earlier, is that TFT allows an interaction to be resolved in an interesting and enjoyable way in a reasonable length of time, fundamentally for three reasons. In TFT, each side does its thing at once, or together, getting it done. GURPS is one guy at a time, while everyone sits and waits. And while TFT has Defend and Disengagement options, there isn´t a lot of parrying or blocking to be had, the damage from each attack is, in effect, summed up in a single roll. Lastly, if I remember correctly without dragging from storage my ruleset, GURPS turns are meant to be about half as long as TFT, effectively time slicing more finely and doubling the time required for an engagement. And truly, we found interactions to take about twice as long, and with more downtime for each player, to boot. The important point to me is that TFT has a somewhat unique turn sequencing and options, using engagement and a UGO IGO mechanic, and sums up sword play into a single die roll to determine whether someone is rewarded with hits or not. This means more time can be spent on the adventure part of the evening, and not an overly long amount on more precisely animating the details of a fight. And in the end, for me and others like me, it makes the difference that is the difference between a system I look forward to playing, and one I do not. I won´t say TFT is better, just preferred by some number of players. And since everyone else has been satisfied with available rules and adventures these past four decades, it would be nice to have the TFT option available once again for those that prefer it, for whatever reasons they present. |
|
03-06-2018, 06:59 PM | #39 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
|
Re: TFT and GURPS - where is the line between them?
Quote:
Although the point of that proposal is ACTUALLY to variate the turn-by-turn Combat Rhythm, and offer very a simple 4th Defensive Option for TFT, and remain in-line operationally and simply with the other meager 3 TFT Defensive Combat options that exist now; as you rightly have indicated. "a Saloon with it's own Graveyard out-back",... nice touch! . |
|
03-08-2018, 05:55 PM | #40 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
|
Re: TFT and GURPS - where is the line between them?
Quote:
There's truth in that! Take a 5-hit blow, for example. In TFT, that's 5 dam. In GURPS, it could be more if it's edged – even tripled to 15 (!) dam if an impaling stab to the vitals. Ouch. Armor subtracts hits before the multiplication, so the effect of armor vs that impale is also essentially tripled: armor subtracting 3 hits ends up reducing that stab damage by 9 points. So, the point is valid. However... TFT offers the unarmored barbarian no way to avoid any of the 5 dam he was hit with. Whereas GURPS lets him avoid all of that 5-dam blow – or all of that 15-dam stab to the heart – with a Dodge. Or all of a 30-dam blow, or all of a 300-dam blow. Once dam is so high (Giants wielding logs, etc.) that even armor won't make a difference, the TFT unarmored barbarian has no particular way to avoid a lick of that damage, while his GURPS counterpart can try to avoid all of it (and, most importantly, can do so more successfully than the heavily armored knight can). In short, and repeating myself from earlier:
But. You know all that, and I think Skarg essentially said the same. Just pondering out loud for anyone new to the games. Even if TFT is awfully harsh on unarmored fighters (on defense, anyway), if you like the overall feel of its combat, then you like the feel; no argument from me about that! It is important that TFT maintain its own unique feel. It's also a good thing that TFT makes armor something you definitely want to have when receiving blows. If heavy, tiring, expensive armor weren't a net benefit to defense, there'd have been no reason for warriors to use it, and there'd be no reason for the game to bother with it. I'll only express a wish that the game do something so that quickness – especially unarmored quickness – offers some aid in defending. (Even the Dodging/Defending does nothing here. That is, it helps the nimble unarmored fighter, sure, but no more than it helps the burdened armored fighter.) In short, I like the "sweaty, bare-chested and aggressive (i.e. barely armored) Low-Fantasy Barbaric-types" concept as much as you do. I'd just like to see that character become a more viable choice in TFT.
__________________
T Bone GURPS stuff and more at the Games Diner: http://www.gamesdiner.com Twitter: @Gamesdiner | RSS: here ⬅︎ Updated RSS link | This forum: Site updates thread (occasionally updated) (Latest goods on site: GLAIVE Mini levels up to v2.4. Update to melee weapon design tool, with more example weapons and commentary.) |
|
|
|