Do Weapons of Pure Magic scale with SM? (Pyramid #3/60)

[PseudoFenton]

The Mystic Power-Ups article in Pyramid #3/60 - Dungeon Fantasy III adds in the option for Weapons of Pure Magic, which allow you to conjure magical equivalent weapons to use (at a cost).

The damage values and descriptions of these are clearly tailored to an SM 0 adventurer, so what happens when a Gnome or a Ogre summons one? A greatsword that is "as long as you are tall, and a hand-span wide" would look very different depending on who summoned it - but the statistics currently remain the same.

Should larger SM races pay more to get higher (and more appropriate to their size) damage? Whilst smaller SM races get a discount but have to shunt the damage down?
Do they automatically scale to equivalent size, but remain the same cost (the natural benefit, or drawback, from being bigger or smaller)?
Or do they always do the same damage regardless of size, and Pixie Mystic Knights are now the best thing since sliced bread - which incidentally can be dwarven bread and still be sliced with a lazy swing of their 5 inch long greatsword. (Okay, Pixies will still struggle ST wise for other sources of damage, but some weapons really do give them a huge leg up - so this is more of an edge case which highlights the oddities).

So, what're you thoughts? (I'll be PMing the author, Antoni Ten Monrós so he can weigh in himself, btw).

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

The Mystic Power-Ups article in Pyramid #3/60 - Dungeon Fantasy III adds in the option for Weapons of Pure Magic, which allow you to conjure magical equivalent weapons to use (at a cost).

The damage values and descriptions of these are clearly tailored to an SM 0 adventurer, so what happens when a Gnome or a Ogre summons one? A greatsword that is "as long as you are tall, and a hand-span wide" would look very different depending on who summoned it - but the statistics currently remain the same.

Should larger SM races pay more to get higher (and more appropriate to their size) damage? Whilst smaller SM races get a discount but have to shunt the damage down?
Do they automatically scale to equivalent size, but remain the same cost (the natural benefit, or drawback, from being bigger or smaller)?
Or do they always do the same damage regardless of size, and Pixie Mystic Knights are now the best thing since sliced bread - which incidentally can be dwarven bread and still be sliced with a lazy swing of their 5 inch long greatsword. (Okay, Pixies will still struggle ST wise for other sources of damage, but some weapons really do give them a huge leg up - so this is more of an edge case which highlights the oddities).

So, what're you thoughts? (I'll be PMing the author, Antoni Ten Monrós so he can weigh in himself, btw).

Who dares summon me?

Now seriously, scaling them is problematic. They are built as innate attacks, in the most optimal way possible, with exactly the most damage possible while keeping them under the cost of the prerequisite level of Imbue. Reach will vary as per effects of SM on reach, but damage added will remain constant. This advantages pixies and disadvantages ogres, but it's the nature of the beast.

Game masters who dislike this are free to create lesser versions for small Adventurers, at reduced costs, but creating enhanced ones for ogres will mean making Imbue the alternate of the attack, and so it requires a lot more number crunching. Mystic knights are already very ST dependent, so I would not change the Weapons of Pure Magic for alternate sized delvers. The racial ST modifiers are enough to balance them.

[PseudoFenton]

{Culled to the Lag God, as it is now irrelevant}.

This is fair enough, larger SM creatures are likely to have larger ST and thus still do larger damage. You can also argue that as the weapons themselves are magical, the damage is not based on the physical properties said weapons should produce in their given form (scaled from SM) and so it makes complete sense that a Pixie's axe really does do the same intrinsic damage as an Ogres.

That said, I've a feeling larger SM may wish to exploit the ability to wield SM0 versions of Two-handed weapons as One-handed weapons with appropriate skill change as so to make them feel like they're worth the investment as a meaningful backup. Being without Imbuements alone is bad enough, doing underpar damage on top of that just undermines the cool.

It does still mean high SM Mystic Knights can focus on a single weapon skill, and not have to worry about having a hidden knife in the boot that uses a poorly invested in secondary skill. But the defaults from weapons are low enough that they may as well try that first, as it costs no CP to do.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

{Culled to the Lag God, as it is now irrelevant}.

This is fair enough, larger SM creatures are likely to have larger ST and thus still do larger damage. You can also argue that as the weapons themselves are magical, the damage is not based on the physical properties said weapons should produce in their given form (scaled from SM) and so it makes complete sense that a Pixie's axe really does do the same intrinsic damage as an Ogres.

That said, I've a feeling larger SM may wish to exploit the ability to wield SM0 versions of Two-handed weapons as One-handed weapons with appropriate skill change as so to make them feel like they're worth the investment as a meaningful backup. Being without Imbuements alone is bad enough, doing underpar damage on top of that just undermines the cool.

It does still mean high SM Mystic Knights can focus on a single weapon skill, and not have to worry about having a hidden knife in the boot that uses a poorly invested in secondary skill. But the defaults from weapons are low enough that they may as well try that first, as it costs no CP to do.

Weapons of pure magic still do ST based damage, so tiny delvers are still getting less than they should, for their investment (ST Based only really makes sense for people with a lot of ST, it's cheaper to buy non-st based innate attacks if you have low ST), while larger delvers will benefit from the no ST maximum quality of innate attacks. No matter their ST, though, the number of hands required does not change.

Also, delvers with Weapon Master for the appropriate weapon still get the appropriate benefit when using a weapon of pure magic, but it applies only to the ST based part, just as if they were weapons (the weapons don't add dice of damage, they add flat amounts instead, so this part is really moot, but just in case someone wanted to know)

[PK]

WOPM have one huge advantage that normal weapons do not: no minimum ST score. Thus, unlike a normal sword, a SOPM deals full damage whether the wielder is a ST 12 human or a ST 52 giant. And WOPM also "scale" in the sense of Reach, only because a high-SM wielder has a larger Reach than a smaller one (p. B402).

So the only thing that doesn't scale is the damage plusses from the weapon. But honestly, that shouldn't be a big deal; an SM +5, ST 75 monster is "only" getting +2 damage, but compared to unarmed attacks the SOPM is also letting him (A) do cutting or impaling attacks, (B) parry weapons safely (and without a chance of breakage!), and (C) attack with swing damage. That's the real benefit of having a good weapon.

[PseudoFenton]

All good points on the damage bonuses, the lack of minST does make it a better deal that most backup weapons. I hadn't considered that at all, so that's for bringing that up!

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

All good points on the damage bonuses, the lack of minST does make it a better deal that most backup weapons. I hadn't considered that at all, so that's for bringing that up!

Just imagine the tiny fairy suddenly swinging a maul with +7 damage!

[Anthony]

Does the reach of innate attack (melee) scale with SM? You definitely get the bonus reach for arm length, but a reach 2 (6') maul would look odd on a pixie.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Does the reach of innate attack (melee) scale with SM? You definitely get the bonus reach for arm length, but a reach 2 (6') maul would look odd on a pixie.

I think I've seen that Loony Toons.