Concealed Carry (CCW), Undercover Holsters, Holdout, IWB and real-world models

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

[ . . . ]Taking Extra Time to scan him carefully.

[ . . . ]

Incidentally, how long do you have to eyeball someone to get an unmodified Observation check to determine if he's armed?

Is it a one-second Concentration maneuver, with a serious professional eyeballing rating a bonus of up to +3 for Taking Extra Time (representing around 10 seconds of beady-eyed suspicion)? [ . . . ]

I do not think Extra Time modifiers are legal in this case. Kromm once said that if a skill lists special time requirements*, then the general time requirement modifiers do not apply. It takes a minute and a pat-down to get a +1, up to 5 minutes and a complete search for +5.

Oh, and it seems that the skill is Search, not Observation (B200, B219).

* == e.g. in case of Autohypnosis, or Memetics.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I do not think Extra Time modifiers are legal in this case. Kromm once said that if a skill lists special time requirements*, then the general time requirement modifiers do not apply. It takes a minute and a pat-down to get a +1, up to 5 minutes and a complete search for +5.

Oh, and it seems that the skill is Search, not Observation (B200, B219).

* == e.g. in case of Autohypnosis, or Memetics.

Hmmm... Search applies to pat-downs and any physical search, but I wouldn't apply it to a visual scan.

On the other hand, a Search skill roll that takes considerable time should clearly be much more effective than Observation at spotting a concealed weapon.

Search doesn't say how long an unmodified skill roll takes. A one minute pat-down of an unresisting person gives +1, however, so whatever you do to get a roll at no modifier takes appreciably less time than a minute.

Based on steps 1 minute (+1) / 3 minutes (+3) / 5 minutes (+5); I think that a quick Search that is good enough not to cause a penalty ought to take somewhere between ten seconds and a half minute. Ten seconds feels more right to me, but I dunno. Other opinions?

A visual scan done with Observation should probably carry at least a -2 and maybe a full -4 penalty to find hidden things that normally require a Search roll to find. It ought to be possible to spot weapons carried concealed, especially if they are just amateurishly stuck under clothing, but anyone who has the Holdout skill ought to be good at defeating an eyeball scan.

Should Observation be at -2 or -4 in a Quick Contest with Search? Hmmm... I'm inclined to maybe give a -5 to the basic use of the skill to replace Search to find concealed objects with a quick one second scan, but allow Taking Extra Time.

Then a ten-second scan within 2 yards, in good lighting, gives only -2 relative to using Search and a full half-minute severe eyeballing gets you the equal of what a quick ten second pat-down with Search does.

Is that too beneficial to Observation skill? Too severe?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

Ordinary Clothes is "At minimum: undergarments, plus a tunic, blouse, or shirt with hose, skirt, or trousers – or along tunic, robe, or dress – and suitable footwear." (B266) That sounds like more than jeans and t-shirt to me. More like shirt, pants (possibly jeans), and footwear. At minimum.

Yeah, it seems to me that Ordinary Clothing pretty much requires that you wear more than one layer of upper and lower body clothing. As I noted above, I think jeans and a t-shirt is kind of a cross between Summer Clothing on the upper body and Ordinary Clothing on the lower body.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Sounds like Equipment Bond to me.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking Equipment Bond for a given holster/gun/clothing combination, but it shouldn't necessarily cost points. It's something that costs money and time in the real world, but I think that the $300 Cost of Good-quality Ordinary Clothing designed to conceal things is fair enough.

Of course, if the rules allow, I'd usually start with a $60 item of Concealed Carry Clothing (Tactical Shooting p. 73) and add the (quality) Holdout bonus for tailoring on to the (equipment) bonus for the CCW clothing. But I don't know if that's kosher.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Yeah, it seems to me that Ordinary Clothing pretty much requires that you wear more than one layer of upper and lower body clothing. As I noted above, I think jeans and a t-shirt is kind of a cross between Summer Clothing on the upper body and Ordinary Clothing on the lower body.

I think it depends entirely on the thickness of the T-shirt. I have light shirts I wear in summer, and heavier shirts I wear in spring/fall. And all that Ordinary Clothing description says to me is "underwear, shoes, and a top and bottom covering." For me "more than one layer of clothing" is most definitely trending towards heavier than ordinary clothing, unless you're just talking about the underwear you have on underneath your pants.

Mostly because I only wear two layers of lower body clothes when it's below freezing, and that's true of most people I know.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

I can only give my own experience on this. I carry a pistol when I go hiking in case my dogs are attacked by coyotes. Since I don't really feel like alarming other hikers or people I meet on the way to the trail (like when I stop for gas), I carry it concealed on my hip. Since coyotes are not something that I expect will take me down in less than a second, I carry the gun without a round in the chamber. Nevertheless, I've occasionally practiced quickly drawing my pistol. It seems that with just a little practice, I can draw and rack the slide about as fast as just drawing. A typical drawing motion first carries the pistol up out of the holster, and then forward into a firing stance. The racking of the slide occurs in the second part of this as you push the pistol forward with the right hand on the grip. Your left hand grabs the slide and retards it as the rest of the gun goes forward, chambering a round. Since it is part of the drawing action, it doesn't seem noticeably slower.

But are you using Fast-Draw to Ready your weapon? That is, could you engage with Sighted Shooting within the same second as you start your drawing motion, putting three rounds on the target?

If not, then you're probably using a normal Ready maneuver to draw your firearm, but maybe you have practised enough to use Fast-Draw to rack the slide as you do that, at the usual +4 to Fast-Draw for having a hand on the weapon (and another +4 to +6 TDM for doing this without stress, complications or danger).

Originally Posted by lwcamp

There are a lot of howevers to this though. I haven't actually timed any of this, it is just a rough guess. Also, this was all in non-stressful conditions where I could concentrate on the practice; the situation might be quite a bit different if I needed to suddely respond to an actual threat. So while I would give a best guess of no penalty, there is a lot of wiggle room for changing the numbers around.

At the moment, Fast-Draw -2, -1 and 0 have been mentioned.

I'm inclined to doubt that there really is no difference in difficulty between instantly drawing a weapon in Condition Zero and starting a combat turn by engaging a threat and drawing a weapon in Condition Three, readying it for use by racking the slide and then starting a combat turn by engaging a threat.

Of course, it could be that this difficulty is small enough to round down to 0. Or that it is properly represented by giving a -1 to quick Contests in Who Draws First and Cascading Waits situations for someone drawing and readying a weapon in Condition Three, instead of a full-scale penalty to Fast-Draw.

I don't know, because I clearly don't have Fast-Draw. If I want to hit anything, it takes me a full second to Ready the weapon at all. And that's from Condition Zero and with a hand on the weapon. Just disengaging a manual safety on an M1911 takes me from 1-3 seconds, because I'm unfamiliar with the weapon.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

IME, it's not slower. It's just more complicated, and especially if you're wearing clothes over the top of your holster it's a bit fiddly to use the off hand to pull the clothes out of the way, use your strong hand to draw, then use the weak hand ALSO to rack the slide as the weapon is coming up. It can certainly be done, but I definitely think it's harder (though the kind of thing that should certainly be possible to be bought off with a technique or perk, at least partially.)

Just so. Drawing a weapon that is concealed under clothing is usually a two-handed job on its own, unlike, say, Fast-Drawing from a Hollywood holster.

This suggests that Grip Mastery (Pistol) would probably be helpful in readying a Condition Three weapon as fast as possible.

Maybe Fast-Draw (Pistol) is at -2 for racking the slide at the same time if you carry the weapon in a way where you'd ordinarily need your off hand to move clothing out of the way unless you have Grip Mastery (Pistol), because then you can use the off hand normally before transitioning seamlessly into a perfect two-handed shooting stance, racking the slide as you do so.

Or ought Grip Mastery (Pistol) instead reduce a -2 Fast-Draw penalty to -1?

With an Average Technique or Perk available to eliminate it entirely?

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

And also, of course, you don't always punch out when you draw. If you're drawing to hit someone in arms reach, you fire from your chest generally.

That already gives a +2 to Fast-Draw contests, as per TS p. 11. Of course, a weapon in Condition Three wouldn't be eligible for hip-shooting, because to ready it, you would need to draw into a two-handed firing stance anyway.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I think it depends entirely on the thickness of the T-shirt. I have light shirts I wear in summer, and heavier shirts I wear in spring/fall. And all that Ordinary Clothing description says to me is "underwear, shoes, and a top and bottom covering."

We agree on what Ordinary Clothing says.

On the other hand, I seem to recall you living somewhere in Perpetual Summer Land. New Mexico, to my knowledge, does not ever experience anything that GURPS would define as 'winter'. It makes perfect sense that fall and winter clothing there would simply be what in other climates would constitute slightly heavier versions of Summer Clothing.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

For me "more than one layer of clothing" is most definitely trending towards heavier than ordinary clothing, unless you're just talking about the underwear you have on underneath your pants.

I am indeed talking about underpants, also known as briefs or for the ladies, panties. As in, 'do not get your panties in a bunch'.

Take note, everyone, we are now talking about underpants, in a perfectly serious, game-mechanical kind of way. :)

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Mostly because I only wear two layers of lower body clothes when it's below freezing, and that's true of most people I know.

I'm defining 'one layer of lower-body clothing' as 'going commando', here. :)

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Icelander

We agree on what Ordinary Clothing says.

On the other hand, I seem to recall you living somewhere in Perpetual Summer Land. New Mexico, to my knowledge, does not ever experience anything that GURPS would define as 'winter'. It makes perfect sense that fall and winter clothing there would simply be what in other climates would constitute slightly heavier versions of Summer Clothing.


I am indeed talking about underpants, also known as briefs or for the ladies, panties. As in, 'do not get your panties in a bunch'.

Take note, everyone, we are now talking about underpants, in a perfectly serious, game-mechanical kind of way. :)


I'm defining 'one layer of lower-body clothing' as 'going commando', here. :)

New Mexico is about a mile up, and while the summers just barely push into the triple digits, the average low in December and January is in the mid-20s (often with some wind). You really want to be wearing several layers and have an outer layer that will cut wind and trap warmth come January. It does help that it's almost always sunny, though. And before that I've lived in Oregon, North Carolina, north California, and Alaska. Alaska is the outlier there as far as what "winter" means, but pretty much everywhere (except CA) it means "cold enough to snow for several months at a time."

That aside, if your "two layers of clothing" is just skivies, then sure, but I think people usually wear those with summer clothes too. Undershirts IME don't get worn unless a) you work in a climate controlled office, b) it's a moisture wicking one, or c) it's getting below about 50.

[Kalzazz]

Undershirts get worn IME when it is mandated by employers or when dressing up for say a job interview. Having blown way to much money on various types of supposedly 'cooling' undershirts I don't think any of them do any better than generic Walmart ones when worn under a uniform shirt and thrust vest

Despite living in NE Ohio for half my life the only times I've ever worn two layers of pants due to cold was when hunting (due to sitting outside not moving) or when actively rolling around and playing in the snow. Normally ordinary khakis are perfectly fine for normal wear in the winter as long as your not being high motionless or getting in direct contact with the snow

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Hmmm... Search applies to pat-downs and any physical search, but I wouldn't apply it to a visual scan.

On the other hand, a Search skill roll that takes considerable time should clearly be much more effective than Observation at spotting a concealed weapon.

Given that there is no default between Search and Observation, I'm inclined to say that for finding stuff on people, only Search will do.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Search doesn't say how long an unmodified skill roll takes. A one minute pat-down of an unresisting person gives +1, however, so whatever you do to get a roll at no modifier takes appreciably less time than a minute.

The wording seems to imply that if a pat-down is +1, then +0 is something without a pat-down - extremely likely a visual search.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Based on steps 1 minute (+1) / 3 minutes (+3) / 5 minutes (+5); I think that a quick Search that is good enough not to cause a penalty ought to take somewhere between ten seconds and a half minute. Ten seconds feels more right to me, but I dunno. Other opinions?

Ten seconds feels right to me. It also plays nicely with Reduced Time modifiers!

Originally Posted by Icelander

A visual scan done with Observation should probably carry at least a -2 and maybe a full -4 penalty to find hidden things that normally require a Search roll to find. It ought to be possible to spot weapons carried concealed, especially if they are just amateurishly stuck under clothing, but anyone who has the Holdout skill ought to be good at defeating an eyeball scan.

As I said before, there's no default between the two skills at all, so I'm guessing Observation shouldn't be doing it at all.