What are the best magical systems in GURPS?

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

It is easy enough for systems like RPM. A practitioner in RPM could have IQ 12 [40], Magery 6 [65], Modular Abilities 24 (Amulet of Knowedge; Slotted Cosmic Powers; Magical, -10%; Protected Amulet, -35%; Trait-Limited, Magical Paths, -30%) [32], Modular Abilities (Ring of Mastery; Cosmic Powers; Magical, -10%; Protected Amulet, -35%; Trait-Limited, Ritual Mastery, -50%) [2], and Thaumotology (VH) IQ+6 [32]-18. For 171 CP, you could have a quite effective NPC.

He's asking for the charm loadout of this NPC when you fight him. What does he have?

[AlexanderHowl]

With 24 available charms? He would have the following charms (since he would have an effective skill of 20):

Air Jet
Alertness
Amplify Injury
Death Touch
Duplicate Object
False Memory
Fireball
Glamor Glamour
Global Positioning Sorcery
Haste
Hinder
Hush
Light
Lockpick
Minor Healing
Off the Grid
Pentagram Trap
Project Voice
Rain of Fire
Resist Magic
Silence
Terrify
Truthteller
Weaken Blood

[hal]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

With 24 available charms? He would have the following charms (since he would have an effective skill of 20):

Air Jet
Alertness
Amplify Injury
Death Touch
Duplicate Object
False Memory
Fireball
Glamor Glamour
Global Positioning Sorcery
Haste
Hinder
Hush
Light
Lockpick
Minor Healing
Off the Grid
Pentagram Trap
Project Voice
Rain of Fire
Resist Magic
Silence
Terrify
Truthteller
Weaken Blood

Ok, now the question that comes to mind - how quickly were you able to whip that NPC up? Looking up WHICH spells the NPC gets would work out to be the same either way (your favorite magic system vs GURPS MAGIC). On the flip side however - your NPC has 20's in all his skills with Magic?

If you're able to bring that NPC's basic stats into play without a lot of mental gymnastics - great. But I noted all of those "modifiers" to the basic advantages/powers and thought to myself "this is NOT simple to implement on the spur of the moment without investing a LOT of time knowing all of the possible modifiers you can use with GURPS advantaegs and powers etc. "

Now for me? Magery 0, IQ 11 - 6 spells from Healing, 4 spells from Necromancer, nothing over skill 14 because he's well trained. Which 10 spells? That I'd have to take some time for looking up, but if I give the mage Diagnosis, I suspect I can give him basic healing spells, a mandatory lend energy spell, and that's the gist of it. But more importantly, I don't have to do a lot of work either way. IQ is treated as an 11, and only 1 point each into spells leaves him at best, Skill 9. Anything at 14 is going to be the result of a LOT of effort on that mage's part. The mindset right off the bat is respecting anyone who casts spells relatively effortlessly, and perhaps feeling inferior if someone knows 30 spells at high levels of competence.

He's not min/maxed - but the mindset suggests itself once you begin to realize just how difficult magic casting is for him, and the fact that a lot of the really GOOD tactical spells are beyond his reach.

In the end? I need only work out the stats, and the general thrust of the character overall - I don't need to know what percentage discount something gets, nor that this character has a skill 20 in ALL of his spell casting. Any GM can throw perfect enemies at the player characters because the GM has unlimited GOD like powers in running his campaign. The interesting NPCs are those who are flawed, good in some things, not so good in others, and always if not the equal of the PC's, then less than in their capabilities.

So - what you use for your campaign works for you, but it would not work so well for me. Why? Unless I miss my guess, the 20 "Effects" or "Charms" are but a small sample of the mage's abilities. The NPC mage can improvise with the best of them, and will be able to craft ANY charm - am I right?

I don't want nor need to have a super mage for my campaigns. I don't want to spend another 20 hours detailing the spells outright. If there were a book of 800 spells for use in the game - GREAT. If I could for instance, make use of the curse from DRAGON QUEST (where you write the name of the Demon who will effect the curse) on a parchment, and once your intended victim accepts that paper, the curse is active. The person can still kill the demon, but after 100 days, the demon will regain his body and be able to stalk his intended victim. Can you actively create that spell for use with your game system? Quite likely - or something akin to it. Or - I can treat it as a Magery 3 spell that requires a few pre-requisites, require that the energy spent on the script of paper be equal to some amount of energy I think is appropriate - and vioila - spell done.

All GMs have their own ways of doing things. That there is a book out on the different game styles and different game goals is proof that people will find something they like and stick with it.

Now - in response to the person who wondered what the rub was...

Ever notice how min/maxed mages who have access to ALL possible magics become the same "cookie" from the same cookie cutter? **shrug**

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Alternative Realm Magic

Ahh, that was you who said those things ... Some good advice. I remembered it, just not where it came from.

[AlexanderHowl]

The idea that an IQ 11 and Magery 0 magician would manifest 10 spells at 14 is quite inefficient. The character would be much better at IQ 14, as the total cost of the build would be reduced from 185 CP to 125 CP, and the overall character would be better. In fact, you could give them IQ 14 and Magery 2 and end up only spending a total of 105 CP. With the 80 CP saved, you could make a more well-rounded character, giving them DX 12, HT 12, and 20 CP in additional skills.

A mage really does need a minimum IQ 12 to be effective when using IQ-based magical systems. In fact, I would argue that Magery should not exceed (IQ-12) in any system where Magery gives a bonus to skills (or should not exceed IQ in systems where Magery limits skill levels, like RPM). If you want lower IQ magicians, I would suggest basing magic on something else than IQ (as suggested in Thaumatology).

For example, HT-based standard magical systems would be quite fun (especially since FP fuels their spells). With such a system, characters should have HT 12 to manifest Magery 0, HT 13 for Magery 1, HT 14 for Magery 3, etc.. It would avoid having every magician being a genius, though it would mean that every magician would overall possess great physical health. It would also allow animals, plants, and even objects to have their own instinctive magics.

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

DR and Innate Attacks start to become effectively more expensive as technology becomes more powerful. At TL4, DR 10 is awesome. At TL6, DR 10 is not worth the CP you spent on it, as rifles will tear through it without difficulty.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

One of the reasons why I prefer RPM is that it is flexible enough that it can keep up with TL5+ equipment.

RPM scaling with mundane technology is a characteristic I like in that system but Sorcery is not that bad in comparison as Basic Magic would be.
The thing with magic is that almost by definition it disregard natural laws of the universe. So instead of trying to compete with technology by increasing damage or range, magic should exploit its abnormality.
For example, instead of spending a lot of points in a fireball that deals high damage at good range, you could add Incendiary 3 (+130%) or Incendiary 4 (+340%) so even a fireball with basic damage of 1d or 2d could set a power armor on fire, causing significant damage and stress to the soft flesh inside it. Making an ultratech composite material catch fire is not realistic, but by channeling the essence of fire a mage can do it. There's other alternatives as well: Innate Attack with Malediction like Spontaneous Combustion from Psionic Powers ignores DR, and Affliction (Agony) with Malediction can also ignore DR and incapacitate a foe without killing them. Ultimately, Cosmic, Irresistible Attack (+300%) quadruples the cost of IA but it's as efficient against a TL0 tribesman with no armor as it is to a TL12 Space Commando with Power Armor.
As for defenses, the same idea applies. DR with high levels or Hardened are exclusive to magic, and it stacks with mundane armor. You could also get Obscure (Anti-targeting) or Defense Bonus to make you hard to hit in the first place, or buff yourself with Injury Tolerance to reduce injuries.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

RPM
For example, instead of spending a lot of points in a fireball that deals high damage at good range, you could add Incendiary 3 (+130%) or Incendiary 4 (+340%) so even a fireball with basic damage of 1d or 2d could set a power armor on fire, causing significant damage and stress to the soft flesh inside it. s.

Did you know that there's a Meta-Spell College spell called "Penetrating spell" (Magic p.123) that will let you throw your Fireball right through that powered armor?

Sometimes you don't need to modify things you just need to do a little more work with what's already there.

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Did you know that there's a Meta-Spell College spell called "Penetrating spell" (Magic p.123) that will let you throw your Fireball right through that powered armor?

Sometimes you don't need to modify things you just need to do a little more work with what's already there.

You'd likely need the "Ignore DR" effect, which costs 10 FP on top of the FP cost of the damaging spell you're going to cast. Then you'd also have to spend several seconds casting them one after the other in order to cast. Unless you have a lot of FP to burn and high enough skill level to reduce the spell casting time*, you're not going to get another chance if you miss.
With Sorcery the IA would cost more, but it takes only a second to cast and 1 FP (or less if using alternative rituals).
You could modify the Penetrating Spell spell by reducing FP cost and/or time to cast, or perhaps using Adjustable Spells to apply AD/Malediction directly on the damaging spell, but either way you'd already breaking the premise of 'not modifying anything'.

*You could say there's some sort of UT mana battery that can provide the mage with hundreds of FP and/or magic amplifiers that grants many levels of Magery, but it would open another can of worms by breaking the "economics" of Magic. Again, you could prohibit some spells and adjust others, but that would be an even larger project.

Edit: By the way, my disinterest for Basic Magic stems from other reasons, not it's effectiveness. Technically you could easily compete with UT soldiers by casting Reverse Missile.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Sorcery/Powers: means I don't have to memorize a whole 'nother system. Plus "limited innate powers" tends to be how I picture my ideal magics anyway.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

Unless you have a lot of FP to burn and high enough skill level to reduce the spell casting time*, you're not going to get another chance if you miss.
W.

I could be using Telecast and the poor slob would never see it coming, 20 FP would be plenty.

Of course, if I did want a UT power source I could use the Cube of Power whcih is in Magic items 3. One of my characters in a 3e campaign designed and built the first one. He only did that because he was going out of range or Merlin-1's industrial enchantment lines and needed more energy than they could handle anyway. If you wondered why the Vube delivered exactly 1772 energy pts you could reverse engineer my character's level of Magery and HT.