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Old 04-02-2020, 07:00 PM   #1
hcobb
 
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Location: Pacheco, California
Default Gargoyle fix

Make Gargoyle starting IQ 7. (Yes, a 31 point character)
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Old 04-02-2020, 08:41 PM   #2
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Gargoyle fix

My own 'fix' was a bit more drastic...

ST 12, DX 8, IQ 6 plus 4 (30 points)

These tough, ugly little humanoids are something of an anomaly. Unlike the majority of living creatures on Cidri, they have a silicon-based physiology, implying a very different evolutionary origin. Standing no more than 3 feet tall, but weighing close to 100lbs, their small batlike wings couldn't possibly carry their weight but the Gargoyle doesn’t know this and flies anyway (actually, they have a limited ability to levitate due to regular consumption of a rare mineral known as heliothil).

Gargoyle society is primitive. They live in small tribes in mountainous areas, hunting and eating rocks. They are also attracted to ancient Mnoren ruins and other places of power. In the more civilized areas of the world, they are extremely rare.

Racial Traits:
Hard as Stone - their stony skin will stop 4 hits/attack and they can strike bare-handed in melee or HTH doing double the damage normal for their ST.
Resistant to Magic - spells targeting the gargoyle directly (except for missile spells) must roll 4d vs DX to hit.
Distrustful - since their gallbladders are useful in several potions, gargoyles are often suspicious of strangers’ intentions. They react to strangers at -1.
Awkward - On the ground, their stubby legs prevent gargoyles from moving quickly and they attack at a -2 DX penalty.
Flight - MA 12

Base MA: 6 on the ground
Size: Half-hex
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 04-03-2020 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 04-03-2020, 05:53 AM   #3
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Gargoyle fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Make Gargoyle starting IQ 7. (Yes, a 31 point character)
Yes, gargoyle starting characters should be weakened. But one point isn't even close to enough. They get flight, which is worth I'd guess a point underground and at least a couple of points above, and 3 points of natural armour, which is worth I guess 3 points. That implies a 27 or 28 point character, not 31.

My off-the-cuff suggestion: ST 9 DX 7 IQ 7, skin stops 2, +4 extra points. One of those points, or any future attribute rise, can be upgrading the skin from 2 hits stopped to 3. Downgrade their punch from 2+0 to "unarmed combat of a human with 50% (round down) more ST".
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:31 AM   #4
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Gargoyle fix

I was fine with the gargoyles (and reptile men) from the original ITL.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:50 AM   #5
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Gargoyle fix

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
I was fine with the gargoyles (and reptile men) from the original ITL.
Me too, but as my campaign world continued to develop I found that I already had plenty of 'large' 1-hex races so I decided to do something a little different w/ gargoyles.
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:18 PM   #6
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Gargoyle fix

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
I was fine with the gargoyles (and reptile men) from the original ITL.
I was, and am, too. The Legacy versions would be children or weaklings in my (original TFT, still in use) campaign.

Though, I also tend not to allow them as choices for starting characters in most games where the agreement is to start at 32 points.

They are definitely stronger in combat than other races. The question is whether that's an issue for your GM and players in the current game situation, or not, and what kinds of issues it is. A strong GM can figure out things to do about that, which can be interesting features rather than problems.


From the perspective of someone who thinks 32-point gargoyles are too strong as a starting option, and is playing RAW, I don't see how making them IQ 7 to start with helps much at all, let alone that it's a "fix". I expect it's one of hcobb's un-stated perspectives that are alien to me, such that everyone should be a wizard, so making them IQ 7 means if they're a wizard, they have an experience penalty from not getting to start with spells? Whatever he's thinking, it's far far away from how I play or ponder TFT.

Last edited by Skarg; 04-03-2020 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 04-04-2020, 02:39 AM   #7
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Gargoyle fix

You just can't build a 32 point gargoyle that's really much like the original TFT gargoyle, and I was quite fond of those. In my group we just just excluded them as player characters, and really never saw them as an intelligent, talking species. Making a gargoyle a 32 point character is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

But TippetsTX, I love your "mini-" gargoyles. There's no reason both species couldn't be used in the same game world, with big feral 20 ST ones remaining monsters that could never be PCs or wizards.

Gargoyles did need fixing at one time. Different parts of the earlier rules had some conflicts or omissions (the 3 point body armor doesn't even seem to be mentioned in 1st edition Wizard, the walking MA got left out somewhere, etc.) That all seems nicely cleaned up in Legacy ITL. And the weaker ones offered up as player characters won't matter to those who don't use them as PCs in the first place. Not that I'd mind those encountered in the wild having different ST depending on age and size.
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Old 04-05-2020, 03:39 PM   #8
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Gargoyle fix

Yeah, I recently ran a "by the book, mostly" Legacy campaign in the Gargoyle Mountains, and decided that there were ST 13-ish gargoyles that were adolescents, with adults more like the ST 16-20 range of original ITL.
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Old 04-05-2020, 05:17 PM   #9
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Gargoyle fix

I didn't like the 'flattening' of stat totals for humanoids in the new edition. I wish they had stayed more discrepant. They also need different rules for XP stat progression.
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Old 04-05-2020, 05:47 PM   #10
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Gargoyle fix

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
They also need different rules for XP stat progression.
Like this?

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#Gargoyles
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