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Old 03-23-2020, 02:02 PM   #21
RobW
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Problem with Death Test is that nothing is hidden.

But I will run a party of four starting human wizards through DT2 and video it.
If you like, I could GM your party through DT2 on my roll20 setup. I"m in the UK, so timezones, but the offer is there!
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Old 03-23-2020, 08:28 PM   #22
David Bofinger
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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Wizards at low and even moderate XP 'levels' have one clear deficit compared to fighters: it costs them ST to use their capabilities, and they quickly run out.
It's true that the power of a wizard, relative to a fighter, depends strongly on the style of play of the game and GM. In an arena battle, or a dungeon siege where the party rests between rooms, or an outdoors game with lots of walking between fights, wizards are very powerful. In a dungeon assault where we can't afford to wait because the party is taking advantage of surprise, or a toxic environment where we can't rest, or an infested dungeon where a wandering monster comes along every time we try to rest, wizards are much weaker. This is probably a major reason why people disagree about the relative power of wizards and fighters.

Still, I think the idea that the relative balance favours wizards at higher levels and fighters at lower ones is mostly valid.
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Old 03-23-2020, 08:53 PM   #23
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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Would it be a good idea to give wizards fewer attributes at any particular level of experience?
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And a difference in slope can be corrected in several ways, but giving an initial boost or penalty to one of the classes is definitely not one of them.
Have I missed something or did you just answer your own question? :)
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:19 AM   #24
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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I'm arguing wizards are more powerful than fighters at high levels. You're arguing they're weaker than fighters at low levels.
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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Wizards at low and even moderate XP 'levels' have one clear deficit compared to fighters: it costs them ST to use their capabilities, and they quickly run out. So, they will seem highly capable for a brief period, and then completely spent and vulnerable.
Between us I think we're all spot on. This sums up how the game works, and our contentment with that will always be relative to the different situations we face during play. It's a hard, short life for a wizard in DT or fighting heroes in any arena, and it's a hard, short life for the hero, even a strong and well experienced hero, up against wizards that can stay invisible while summoning dragons and demons to rip you apart.

Play the game long enough and something is sure to feel "unfair". House rules are a juggling act of correcting what one person subjectively thinks is unfair while trying not to upset the cart, introducing what someone else would call unfair. Revisions by the designer in the official rules face the same dilemma.

The Legacy edition of ITL headed in what I think is the right direction for most of the things we talk about. The 3d cap on missile spell damage reigns in high level wizards, while expertise talents enhance higher level fighters (but also low level fighters in some cases!). But then the Mana Staff is an advantage to more experienced wizards so in the end that may all just be a wash. And the low level or starting wizards are just as anemic as ever.

It all comes back to how much emphasis on combat the GM builds into their campaigns, and at what experience level the characters are when combat is emphasized. If you're going to have a lot of skirmishes and short intervals between fights, you might seriously consider house rules to make wizards less vulnerable or at least more useful.
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Old 03-24-2020, 02:37 AM   #25
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

I used to play a Wizard a lot back in the day. I alsways felt that TFT Wizards were very flexible but weak in power because of the ST constraint. I had rules that allowed Wizards to store ST in staffs, rings etc, but I'm thinking of something simpler for Legacy:

Wizards have a reservoir of ST for spellcasting based on their ST Attribute but completely independent from other ST functions like wounds or fatigue. So a ST10 Wizard can cast 10 points of spells before their magic power is depleted. But their ST is unaffected for any other purposes. This "Magical Strength" is regained as Fatigue.

This will mean Wizards don't actually have more magical power than currently, they will just be a bit more willing to use it.
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Old 03-24-2020, 05:27 AM   #26
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

There are things that talents can accomplish that are difficult or impossible to do with spells.

The best character types to apply these talents are wizards.

Combine weapon mastery super-defend options with free action staff blasts or apply IQ 17 to Charisma or Alertness.
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Last edited by hcobb; 03-24-2020 at 05:43 AM.
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Old 03-24-2020, 09:21 AM   #27
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

TFT is full of things that are 'unfair': Petards and arquebus shots and exploding gems and sleep spells and lassos and dagger marksmanship and charging lances and on and on and on. Your job is to try to do one of those things to the other guy before he does one to you.
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:48 AM   #28
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
There are things that talents can accomplish that are difficult or impossible to do with spells.

The best character types to apply these talents are wizards.

Combine weapon mastery super-defend options with free action staff blasts or apply IQ 17 to Charisma or Alertness.
No, those designs may make a munchkin that is better than they should be at the things they do (which would be nice to fix with rule changes), but:

1) They're a waste of wizard abilities just to get another fighter.
2) Your wizard could be much better used doing other things than playing with knives.
3) Wizards who go up where they can use knives on foes, tend to get killed.
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:57 AM   #29
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

It's certainly true that wizards, especially before they have powerstones, apprentices who can Aid them, and/or now, in Legacy, staff mana, need to carefully consider when to cast what spells to conserve ST, and that they should be very careful not to get attacked, etc.

However that is one of the main things that keeps them somewhat balanced. Especially if in order to gain a lot of experience, they need to actually participate in combat. (That aspect may be reduced by GMs who give out a bunch of XP for non-dangerous play.)

I think the danger and balance curve is also very different for very clever, cautious, creative and/or experienced wizard players, compared to other players, especially those who have some idea they should be able to use a bunch of magic and not have their fatigue run out or be vulnerable.

And another play style that can make a huge difference, involves the wizard's comrades and how well they work together to support each other. For example, if the wizard has enough fighter comrades and they can handle many foes themselves, and they don't let the wizard get attacked, then the wizard can provide magic to do things the fighters can't do, or tip the scales when needed, and then the wizard can be much more valuable than another fighter, and have good chances of survival.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:08 AM   #30
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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Wizards have a reservoir of ST for spellcasting based on their ST Attribute but completely independent from other ST functions like wounds or fatigue. So a ST10 Wizard can cast 10 points of spells before their magic power is depleted. But their ST is unaffected for any other purposes. This "Magical Strength" is regained as Fatigue.
Would they also be able to use ST, or only what is effectively mana stat?
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