Some questions about Melee/Wizard

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Knock down a high DX figure and it will then stand up again before you hit again, unless you get +4 to your action order from kicking a foe while he's down.

No it won't.

The foe immediately falls down, loses any action it hasn't taken that turn, and if it tries to get up on the next turn, that happens at the end of the combat turn, not on its adjDX, per ITL p.102.

[hcobb]

Note "When his own turn to act comes" at ITL 126.

Wording for option g varies on the GM screen.

Melee page 7 and Wizard page 6 agrees with ITL 102.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Note "When his own turn to act comes" at ITL 126.

Wording for option g varies on the GM screen.

Melee page 7 and Wizard page 6 agrees with ITL 102.

ITL 126 is a special case about rolling away from a larger figure that knocked into you with a Push.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Knock down a high DX figure and it will then stand up again before you hit again, unless you get +4 to your action order from kicking a foe while he's down.

No it won't, not if you act to hit it again on the next turn. ITL 118, Reactions To Injury, paragraph 2. A figure knocked down by a blow loses up to two chances to make an attack, first in the current turn (if it hadn't attacked anything already) and second in the next turn because all it can do then is crawl 2 hexes, or Stand at the very end of the turn. By then every figure close enough can have attacked it at +4 DX.

(By contrast, being stunned for -2 DX only applies to the next chance to act or attack, which might come in the very same turn as the stunning blow occurred.)

It's always been this way. It's the main reason getting knocked down at all is so lethal.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

(By contrast, being stunned for -2 DX only applies to the next chance to act or attack, which might come in the very same turn as the stunning blow occurred.)

But that raises another quandary we may not all be handling the same.

After a figure has taken it's action, it gets stunned by taking 5 hits. It is now as -2 DX until completing it's next chance to attack on the subsequent turn. Presumably we would all charge that figure that -2 DX penalty for any rolls it is forced to make during the interval, such as a saving roll not to trip during the movement phase of the next turn. That -2 DX penalty hasn't expired until the next chance to act has passed.

But if the same figure still has its action coming on the turn it is stunned, and it of course has to now take that action at -2 DX, has the penalty then expired, or does it carry over and last into any part of the next turn, and if so to what extent and why?

I'm not being rhetorical, I honestly can't remember what my old group did in those situations! Well it's been awhile :)

[Skarg]

What we actually did was apply the -2 from the moment a figure took 5+ damage in a turn, until the end of the next turn, no matter what he did when. Yes, this meant a slower figure might be penalized on two actions, but we didn't mind that, and of course figures can choose to do things that don't involve DX rolls, such as Disengage, Move, Defend, Disbelieve, etc.

(IIRC the wording did actually change. It used to say something like "on the figure's next turn", which some groups other that ours interpreted as not on the same turn, which would mean you could hurt a foe and have them attack you at full DX but then be at -2 the next turn. I wouldn't like that, as I think the ability to impair foes by hurting them first is one of the most important elements of TFT, and I don't much like the idea you can't impair their attack on you unless you completely knock them down.)

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Yes, this meant a slower figure might be penalized on two actions, but we didn't mind that, and of course figures can choose to do things that don't involve DX rolls...

That actually makes the stun penalty also more consistent with the knock down penalty. If one injury penalty lasts all the way through the next turn's chance to act, it's really fair to interpret it as that they both do. That may even have been the original intention.

[Skarg]

Yeah, we always liked playing that way for all those reasons, and because we like there being effects of injury.

[larsdangly]

Returning to one of the page-1 topics that launched this thread, I have been giving some thought to the question of the 'high DX' fighter avoiding injury without armor, following RAW.

I don't think it is a reasonable expectation that just anyone can engage unarmored with a competent foe and avoid injury while still attacking with some good chance of success. If that were possible, DX would truly be the 'god' stat. So, the more interesting question is whether RAW can be used to construct a high DX and highly skilled swashbuckler sort of character who can leap about in combat with little chance of being hit by normal foes.

Several approaches are possible, but here is one I find plausible:
ST 10 DX 17 IQ 13
Sword, Shield, Running, Acrobatics, Shield Expertise, Fencing, Fencing Mastery [Two weapons for free]
Saber (2d, 3d+2 on a shrewd thrust), Small shield (-2 damage, -4 to hit total)

This fencer can deliver 1 exceptionally dangerous attack per turn with a high chance of success, so he or she is not just a defensive specialist, and gets to do this early in the action order vs. anyone other than a charging pole weapon attack.

And a wide range of defensive approaches are possible:
- Avoid engagement using high Move score (and acrobatics when terrain is in play), particularly vs. pole weapon charges.
- Disengage at adj. DX 17 when that seems prudent
- Defend, making foes roll 6d at adjDX -4. Almost no one has a remotely significant chance of making this attack roll
- Attack only in tactically advantageous situations - like when you get to go first against a single engaged foe who lacks heavy protection (meaning they have little chance of getting to take a shot at you).

This character isn't invincible. A high DX, highly skilled and fast pole weapon user could deliver a coup de grace. As could a high DX archer or wizard. But in melee combat with like-armed humanoids he or she would only face modest chances of being struck on the rare occasion of a missed attack roll, low damage roll, or facing off with an even higher DX foe (fair enough - you don't get to be immune to people who are better than you!).

[hcobb]

The problem with the 6d defenses is that the chance of an auto-hit is 6% vs the 4.6% of a 3d attack. The chance of a double or triple damage result is unknown, but my extrapolation puts that very low:

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/TFT_Saving...rcentages.html

My favorite defensive move is therefore the ST 6, DX 11, IQ 15 double parry of 1-h staff and brand which stops four hits on a 4/DX roll. The chance of a double or higher hit is about a fifth the chance on a 3/DX roll so the hits stopped aren't likely to be washed out by a lucky hit.