Trying to understand self powered items - Page 3

Helborn · 11-23-2019, 03:11 PM

Also, rods do not have the 3 point limitation so a 20 point Wizard's Wrath is possible from a rod.

I have introduced the limitation that no Wizard's Guild chapter has more than 4 wizards so items with a 4th enchantment or above +3 can only be found items or they are extremely rare and extremely expensive and take very long to make. How many Wizards are willing to tie up their lives making an item that takes them 2 or 5 years to make? and how many adventurers are willing to wait that amount of time for an item to become available after they have paid for it? Cash up front only.

hcobb · 11-23-2019, 03:21 PM

Limiting the maximum wizards in a circle doesn't make items more expensive. It just reduces the value of high IQ, low DX wizards.

Helborn · 11-23-2019, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

Limiting the maximum wizards in a circle doesn't make items more expensive. It just reduces the value of high IQ, low DX wizards.

That depends on how you play it. And IMHO high IQ low DX wizards distort the game since they can only be NPC's.

I only use them as sages or patrons

hcobb · 11-23-2019, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helborn

That depends on how you play it. And IMHO high IQ low DX wizards distort the game since they can only be NPC's.

I only use them as sages or patrons

Nobody else sees how effective a ST 6, DX 9, IQ 17 wizard is?

Helborn · 11-23-2019, 09:04 PM

Even as a free action, the occult strike still requires an AdjDX roll even though it is at +3DX. On any spell, the superwizard still misses more than 50% of the time

hcobb · 11-23-2019, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helborn

On any spell, the superwizard still misses more than 50% of the time

Which is why Molly takes several roll vs IQ spells.

Skarg · 11-24-2019, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

Nobody else sees how effective a ST 6, DX 9, IQ 17 wizard is?

Very effective with a flock of assistants with Aid.

larsdangly · 11-24-2019, 09:21 AM

High IQ (which now generally means low ST and DX) wizards are definitely interesting characters, but I really don't get the frequent suggestions here that they make for good skirmish combatants. Every version I've seen would be mowed down in the first or second turn of a fight against opponents who are also capable and make reasonable choices. The fragility of such characters in combat may be part of the reason why I've never seen one as a PC at my table.

But they do have an excellent role to play as non combatants. Obviously the roster of NPCs in any campaign should probably include a few. And some day an interesting player who understands all the potentialities of characters who don't do much fighting might bring a PC like this to my group.

Nils_Lindeberg · 12-23-2019, 10:16 AM

-- Sorry for going off-topic a little --

The high IQ guy, that tries to hide behind his fellow party members, and aid them with a few 1d+2 hits against the more heavy armored enemies. And when caught in melee, goes defensive and do the same, is a viable character. Not the best, but a viable character in most balanced parties. Or if the fight seems to be a long one, a staff to snake casting, maybe an illusion, etc. And you can rest back your fatigue just as quickly when you ST 6 as if you have ST 16, still just 1 per 15min.

Outside of combat, they shine with exceptional IQ saves, or maybe one of the many IQ based spells. They can even pick a talent or three and still have plenty of IQ left for spells.

Then outside the dungeon, they can be of immense help depending on their spell choices. Maybe hire a few apprentices for some fun higher ST castings. Or join an enchantment circle and get paid in items? Some single high IQ spells are a potential career in and off themselves.

And this is at their 32 point level. If you let them get a couple of thousand XP, they will be powerhouses (a few attributes and some extra mana in the staff). The opposite will not be true. If you go with just a high IQ like 14 and not exceptional IQ. You will have almost the same disadvantages, not much more survivability and it will cost you those 2000xp just to get 4 high-level spells (at 500xp a piece) that the IQ 17 guys already have "for free" at the start. On top of that, it takes a lot of downtime to learn three or four spells. And if you start with a standard IQ 11, you will most likely never get to those high-level spells at all.

So IQ 17 characters are a short term investment and not an immediate powerhouse. But they are not as weak as a D&D d4 HP wizard of old that used to be a very long term investment.

But just like it is very valuable to start an expertise or mastery talented guy with as high an IQ as possible (and preferable with the talents already taken), it is not the best for the first few dungeon delves.

A 6/14/13 spear master has a huuuge advantage XP wise if he survives until he gets to 11/14/13, compared to a 10/12/11 spear expert or a vanilla 11/14/8 spear fighter that wants to get to 11/14/13 with spear mastery. (And yes these are 33p point elven characters, since no 32p standard starting character can start with mastery unless they take a handicap or start play with a +1DX item). They are all built with the same goal, but the way there will be waaay longer for two of them, even if it will be safer in the beginning.

Sure that first 6/14/13 guy will have a tough time surviving while jabbing at people with a 1d-1 DX11 attacks. But with charge bonuses, to hit from standing still and the option of going defensive with 6d he might survive. And if an opponent turns their backs or side to him when they get frustrated with their 6d attacks with -2DX. The spear master will charge their back for 3d+1 at DX11. And with berserk, a balanced spear or a very finely made spear (at 400$) he will not be completely worthless in a fight. And after +3 ST so he can wield that javelin without penalties he will be quite nasty. If you want you could even add a shield and shield expertise for some more protection or a talent like physicker to help the rest of the party through the first few dungeons until he can pull his own weight.

In short, starting talents should either be 8 points for everyone, or +1 IQ from XP should include +1 talent/spell point. Or at the very least you should be able to save talent points and not use them all from the start.

11-23-2019, 03:11 PM	#21
Helborn Join Date: Aug 2005	Re: Trying to understand self powered items Also, rods do not have the 3 point limitation so a 20 point Wizard's Wrath is possible from a rod. I have introduced the limitation that no Wizard's Guild chapter has more than 4 wizards so items with a 4th enchantment or above +3 can only be found items or they are extremely rare and extremely expensive and take very long to make. How many Wizards are willing to tie up their lives making an item that takes them 2 or 5 years to make? and how many adventurers are willing to wait that amount of time for an item to become available after they have paid for it? Cash up front only. __________________ Helborn

11-23-2019, 03:21 PM	#22
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: Trying to understand self powered items Limiting the maximum wizards in a circle doesn't make items more expensive. It just reduces the value of high IQ, low DX wizards. __________________ -HJC

11-23-2019, 09:04 PM	#25
Helborn Join Date: Aug 2005	Re: Trying to understand self powered items Even as a free action, the occult strike still requires an AdjDX roll even though it is at +3DX. On any spell, the superwizard still misses more than 50% of the time __________________ Helborn

11-24-2019, 09:21 AM	#28
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Trying to understand self powered items High IQ (which now generally means low ST and DX) wizards are definitely interesting characters, but I really don't get the frequent suggestions here that they make for good skirmish combatants. Every version I've seen would be mowed down in the first or second turn of a fight against opponents who are also capable and make reasonable choices. The fragility of such characters in combat may be part of the reason why I've never seen one as a PC at my table. But they do have an excellent role to play as non combatants. Obviously the roster of NPCs in any campaign should probably include a few. And some day an interesting player who understands all the potentialities of characters who don't do much fighting might bring a PC like this to my group.

12-23-2019, 10:16 AM	#29
Nils_Lindeberg Join Date: Jul 2018	Re: Trying to understand self powered items -- Sorry for going off-topic a little -- The high IQ guy, that tries to hide behind his fellow party members, and aid them with a few 1d+2 hits against the more heavy armored enemies. And when caught in melee, goes defensive and do the same, is a viable character. Not the best, but a viable character in most balanced parties. Or if the fight seems to be a long one, a staff to snake casting, maybe an illusion, etc. And you can rest back your fatigue just as quickly when you ST 6 as if you have ST 16, still just 1 per 15min. Outside of combat, they shine with exceptional IQ saves, or maybe one of the many IQ based spells. They can even pick a talent or three and still have plenty of IQ left for spells. Then outside the dungeon, they can be of immense help depending on their spell choices. Maybe hire a few apprentices for some fun higher ST castings. Or join an enchantment circle and get paid in items? Some single high IQ spells are a potential career in and off themselves. And this is at their 32 point level. If you let them get a couple of thousand XP, they will be powerhouses (a few attributes and some extra mana in the staff). The opposite will not be true. If you go with just a high IQ like 14 and not exceptional IQ. You will have almost the same disadvantages, not much more survivability and it will cost you those 2000xp just to get 4 high-level spells (at 500xp a piece) that the IQ 17 guys already have "for free" at the start. On top of that, it takes a lot of downtime to learn three or four spells. And if you start with a standard IQ 11, you will most likely never get to those high-level spells at all. So IQ 17 characters are a short term investment and not an immediate powerhouse. But they are not as weak as a D&D d4 HP wizard of old that used to be a very long term investment. But just like it is very valuable to start an expertise or mastery talented guy with as high an IQ as possible (and preferable with the talents already taken), it is not the best for the first few dungeon delves. A 6/14/13 spear master has a huuuge advantage XP wise if he survives until he gets to 11/14/13, compared to a 10/12/11 spear expert or a vanilla 11/14/8 spear fighter that wants to get to 11/14/13 with spear mastery. (And yes these are 33p point elven characters, since no 32p standard starting character can start with mastery unless they take a handicap or start play with a +1DX item). They are all built with the same goal, but the way there will be waaay longer for two of them, even if it will be safer in the beginning. Sure that first 6/14/13 guy will have a tough time surviving while jabbing at people with a 1d-1 DX11 attacks. But with charge bonuses, to hit from standing still and the option of going defensive with 6d he might survive. And if an opponent turns their backs or side to him when they get frustrated with their 6d attacks with -2DX. The spear master will charge their back for 3d+1 at DX11. And with berserk, a balanced spear or a very finely made spear (at 400$) he will not be completely worthless in a fight. And after +3 ST so he can wield that javelin without penalties he will be quite nasty. If you want you could even add a shield and shield expertise for some more protection or a talent like physicker to help the rest of the party through the first few dungeons until he can pull his own weight. In short, starting talents should either be 8 points for everyone, or +1 IQ from XP should include +1 talent/spell point. Or at the very least you should be able to save talent points and not use them all from the start.