GURPS 4e True Blood

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The ability to use Conditioning to instill every single Mental Disadvantage is extremely useful. You can instill Gullibility, Fanaticism, Compulsive Generousity, Charitable, Code of Honor, Sense of Duty, etc. In essence, you can create a willing and able servant with the precise morals you prefer. By contrast, the ability to use it only to instill two seperate Quirks, i.e. Quirk-level Amnesia and Quirk-level Delusion, seems like a massive limitation.

It is what the rules suggest, though. The reason One Command Only is not such a big limiter on MC is similar to the reasoning behind a lot of Accessibility mods... The owning character is assumed to be looking for ways to maximize the utility of their ability. I think the same should apply when the limit is on an Enhancement. I could see upping the limitation a bit, but not enough to make a big difference in the final cost... maybe -30% or so. You might want to take it up with Rev by PM or email. I would be a little surprised if his advice differed much, but he and Kromm do sometimes seem to take delight in offering opinions contrary to mine :/ :)
Thinking of the desired changes as two Quirk-level traits looks to me like it is understating the effect. False memories should usually count as at least a -5pt Delusion, I think, unless they are quite trivial. The Amnesia does seem like something less than the -10pt version in Basic, but, referencing RPK's Mindwipe ability again, he uses Total Amnesia (the -25pt version) to achieve a similar result.

Thinking about it further, it seems that what I'm looking for is an improvement on the No Memory Enhancement. Something that allows you to extend the duration to slightly before you used Mind Control and that allows you to implant a false memory instead of leaving a gap in the memory.

Since No Memory is worth just +10%, I figure that modifying that would come out cheaper and closer in cost to the utility. Slap Cosmic on it for the Delusion in place of a gap and Extended Duration for it working a few minutes before the Mind Control?

I'm not so sure that No Memory is a good way to go, now... The effect really sounds like a conditioning one, and trying to get it by bending the rules for No Memory seems like bad form. JMO

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

It is what the rules suggest, though. The reason One Command Only is not such a big limiter on MC is similar to the reasoning behind a lot of Accessibility mods... The owning character is assumed to be looking for ways to maximize the utility of their ability. I think the same should apply when the limit is on an Enhancement. I could see upping the limitation a bit, but not enough to make a big difference in the final cost... maybe -30% or so. You might want to take it up with Rev by PM or email. I would be a little surprised if his advice differed much, but he and Kromm do sometimes seem to take delight in offering opinions contrary to mine :/ :)

The philosophy that limitations that remove more than 50% of the functionality of a trait should not reduce cost significantly is foreign to me.

The entire reason for limitations is to emulate an ability from fiction or make sure that the ramifications of an ability logically result from the in-setting rationale behind it.

To take an example that I've encountered time and time again, I find it somewhat preposterous that you can buy DR 60 against everything for the same price as you can buy DR 100 against fire only*. It is basically a punishment for the player who bought a more colourful and interesting ability, probably one that fits a theme for his character.

"Nah, sorry. I know that your ability is useful about 1/100th of the time that general DR is, but the rules still say it costs 60% of full price."

As a general philosophy, the idea that someone cutting utility for his power in half should count himself lucky to get a -20% cost break is not one of which I am particularly fond.

*Which might represent around 1-3% of total attacks directed at the party as a whole, but unless the PCs never face enemies with any idea of their powers or history, the flame-resistant character will face fire attacks even more seldom than this.

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Thinking of the desired changes as two Quirk-level traits looks to me like it is understating the effect. False memories should usually count as at least a -5pt Delusion, I think, unless they are quite trivial. The Amnesia does seem like something less than the -10pt version in Basic, but, referencing RPK's Mindwipe ability again, he uses Total Amnesia (the -25pt version) to achieve a similar result.I'm not so sure that No Memory is a good way to go, now... The effect really sounds like a conditioning one, and trying to get it by bending the rules for No Memory seems like bad form. JMO

The thing is, though, you can't use the false memories for anything useful beyond not having the victim notice that there are significant gaps in its memory (because it can't remember anything between the time shortly before you used Mind Control and until a short time after you stopped) and thus panicking.

They won't make the victim your devoted ally. They won't convince it that its friends have betrayed it. It won't do any of the nifty things that Conditioning does.

All it does it make No Memory more useful, because you can use it on others than hobos and drunks who won't notice gaps in their memory.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The philosophy that limitations that remove more than 50% of the functionality of a trait should not reduce cost significantly is foreign to me.

The entire reason for limitations is to emulate an ability from fiction or make sure that the ramifications of an ability logically result from the in-setting rationale behind it.

To take an example that I've encountered time and time again, I find it somewhat preposterous that you can buy DR 60 against everything for the same price as you can buy DR 100 against fire only*. It is basically a punishment for the player who bought a more colourful and interesting ability, probably one that fits a theme for his character.

"Nah, sorry. I know that your ability is useful about 1/100th of the time that general DR is, but the rules still say it costs 60% of full price."

As a general philosophy, the idea that someone cutting utility for his power in half should count himself lucky to get a -20% cost break is not one of which I am particularly fond.

Thank you Icelander. I've often felt this way, but I've never articulated it this well.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The philosophy that limitations that remove more than 50% of the functionality of a trait should not reduce cost significantly is foreign to me.
...
To take an example that I've encountered time and time again, I find it somewhat preposterous that you can buy DR 60 against everything for the same price as you can buy DR 100 against fire only*. It is basically a punishment for the player who bought a more colourful and interesting ability, probably one that fits a theme for his character.
...
As a general philosophy, the idea that someone cutting utility for his power in half should count himself lucky to get a -20% cost break is not one of which I am particularly fond.

*Which might represent around 1-3% of total attacks directed at the party as a whole, but unless the PCs never face enemies with any idea of their powers or history, the flame-resistant character will face fire attacks even more seldom than this.

As I was saying before I was rudely interrupted *bloody power outage!* ... The philosophy is a design one, so issues with it are going to be best dealt with by Kromm. I don't mind giving my opinions, but you may find them less satisfactory.

There are occasions when, IMO, Accessibilities and related limiters do not accurately reflect how much an ability is being hindered by a negative modifier. These generally are situations where the hampering condition is unavoidable or very difficult to avoid. For such cases, I have houseruled that the limitation is actually the percentage of the time the ability is impacted by the mod (this usually amounts to an estimation on my part). The situation you point out with Limited Defenses is like this. Using my own guidelines, I might say for a particular setting that fire/heat attacks will likely only come up about 20% of the time. Since the player will usually not know in advance if his limited DR is going to be useful or not, it would probably justify a -80% limitation on the price.
However, unavoidable situations like this are not really common. An ability that is 'Only usable at night' is not so limited when the owner can simply adjust his schedule to be active when the ability is available. Unreliable limitations on abilities don't mean that you only get the use from it suggested by converting the Activation # into a percentage, because trying again the next turn (at the cost of a FP) or even a couple of turns later often doesn't hurt the user... that is, there are often situations where the immediate failure to activate is unimportant so long as you can get it work in a reasonable time. The limited command set for MC (or Conditioning, ITC) is like this. Sure you are restricting the number of possible things that could be done to some small subset of all things possible with that enhancement, but the functionality is not reduced by as much. The clever character will seek to manipulate the situations where he is using his MC ability, so that the limited set of commands will suffice to get he job done. It's the expectation of such optimizing behavior that warrants the seemingly low discounts for those situational limiters.

The thing is, though, you can't use the false memories for anything useful beyond not having the victim notice that there are significant gaps in its memory (because it can't remember anything between the time shortly before you used Mind Control and until a short time after you stopped) and thus panicking.

They won't make the victim your devoted ally. They won't convince it that its friends have betrayed it. It won't do any of the nifty things that Conditioning does.

All it does it make No Memory more useful, because you can use it on others than hobos and drunks who won't notice gaps in their memory.

I understand that the pricing on No Memory might make it more attractive. I just am not sure that it is fair to try and modify it to do a job that seems better suited for Conditioning. Making it retroactive may not be a big problem, since we can again look at Mindwipe as a precedent. It's the expansion of it by including an actual false memory that looks to be the issue, balance-wise.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

There are occasions when, IMO, Accessibilities and related limiters do not accurately reflect how much an ability is being hindered by a negative modifier. These generally are situations where the hampering condition is unavoidable or very difficult to avoid. For such cases, I have houseruled that the limitation is actually the percentage of the time the ability is impacted by the mod (this usually amounts to an estimation on my part). The situation you point out with Limited Defenses is like this. Using my own guidelines, I might say for a particular setting that fire/heat attacks will likely only come up about 20% of the time. Since the player will usually not know in advance if his limited DR is going to be useful or not, it would probably justify a -80% limitation on the price.

I agree 100% with this. A limitation that you can 'game' by planning to some extent when it will apply and when not is worth much less than one which comes up only a certain percentage of the time and you have no control over it.

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

However, unavoidable situations like this are not really common. An ability that is 'Only usable at night' is not so limited when the owner can simply adjust his schedule to be active when the ability is available. Unreliable limitations on abilities don't mean that you only get the use from it suggested by converting the Activation # into a percentage, because trying again the next turn (at the cost of a FP) or even a couple of turns later often doesn't hurt the user... that is, there are often situations where the immediate failure to activate is unimportant so long as you can get it work in a reasonable time.[/SIZE][/SIZE] The limited command set for MC (or Conditioning, ITC) is like this. Sure you are restricting the number of possible things that could be done to some small subset of all things possible with that enhancement, but the functionality is not reduced by as much. The clever character will seek to manipulate the situations where he is using his MC ability, so that the limited set of commands will suffice to get he job done. It's the expectation of such optimizing behavior that warrants the seemingly low discounts for those situational limiters.I understand that the pricing on No Memory might make it more attractive. I just am not sure that it is fair to try and modify it to do a job that seems better suited for Conditioning. Making it retroactive may not be a big problem, since we can again look at Mindwipe as a precedent. It's the expansion of it by including an actual false memory that looks to be the issue, balance-wise.

On the other hand, the limitation we are discussing is less an Accessibility than it is simply a raw reduction on the things that can be done with the Advantage.

Ordinary Mind Control can do an X number of very useful things. Mind Control with No Memory can do these things and one moderately useful thing, for a total value of X+y. Mind Control with Conditioning can do all the things normal Mind Control can do and it adds a vast number of other interesting abilities, which allow for stuff that normal Mind Control could never do. The value of this is fair at X+Z.

I just think that being able to do Mind Control stuff plus two moderately useful things should have a value between X+y and X+Z, preferably closer to +y than +Z.

In other words, a new Enchancement worth +20% called False Memory might be just what I was looking for.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I just think that being able to do Mind Control stuff plus two moderately useful things should have a value between X+y and X+Z, preferably closer to +y than +Z.

In other words, a new Enchancement worth +20% called False Memory might be just what I was looking for.

Well, if you haven't had the opportunity to run the idea by Kromm or Rev, I'd say to just go ahead with the figure that feels right to you. The difference between charging 10 or 20 points for the enhancement is probably not going to make a noticeable impact in a game, unless the characters are being built on a small budget, and the final cost seems like it is of more importance than how the build is constructed.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Well, if you haven't had the opportunity to run the idea by Kromm or Rev, I'd say to just go ahead with the figure that feels right to you. The difference between charging 10 or 20 points for the enhancement is probably not going to make a noticeable impact in a game, unless the characters are being built on a small budget, and the final cost seems like it is of more importance than how the build is constructed.

The cost holds no more than an academic interest to me, as point totals are rarely important in my games.

On the other hand, I was trying to construct a similar ability in GCA and found myself stumped. So, now I'll just add the new +20% Enhancement and be satisfied.

Well, for this.

The things that the blood does is another matter. Really complex build.