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Old 05-14-2018, 06:43 AM   #11
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Body Language vs Detect Lies

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Originally Posted by JazzJedi View Post
Not sure I agree, but I am not an expert. Everything I have read of the psychology of interrogation and human lie detection is in the ability to pick up on verbal and non-verbal cues. Are these aspects separated and taught separately? If they aren't, then this is really one skill with a several dimensions, like most GURPS skills.
An interrogator is likely to be trained in face-to-face methods of lie detection, such as microexpression spotting of Ekman (or the fictional Lightman), since it's way more typical for interrogations to be conducted either face to face, or while looking through a window or at camera footage to analyse the suspect. Also, it's often quite useful to detect not just lies, but also the overall character of the detainee, or its current mood.

Conversely, a lie-detection training that is less visually focused, such that it is suitable for handling a phone/radio conversation, or even reading a written report from a person you've never seen, seems more appropriate for a spookhouse intelligence analyst or handler.
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Old 07-13-2018, 06:10 AM   #12
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Default Re: Body Language vs Detect Lies

Of course, realistic lie detection consists mostly of checking witness and suspect statements against externally obtained evidence and evaluating internal consistency.

Real Body Language skill flags threats in a crowd or estimates whether a patient requires immediate action to restrain him to secure the situation. Real Detect Lies skill doesn't exist in the form GURPS writes it up, but is a function of Criminology, Intelligence Analysis or Interrogation, as well as possibly being possible as part of some Professional Skills (e.g. Reporter). Alternatively, it could be replaced with a skill called Interview, representing the day-to-day work of many mental health professionals, investigators and social scientists.

People who believe they can use either Body Language or Detect Lies to tell whether a witness or suspect is lying are generally projecting their own prejudices or subconsciously seeking to bolster a snap judgement with plausible-sounding technobabble. This goes double for pseudoscience like 'polygraph machines'.

In general, absent actual, professional methods of investigation, such as comparing other, independently obtained evidence against statements, people have a 50/50 chance of guessing whether someone is lying or not. Veteran investigators and interviewers tend to believe that they have a much higher chance than that, based on experience or 'intuition', but in double-blind studies, they display the exact same 50/50 odds performance as a rookie (or a random person).
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Old 07-13-2018, 07:35 AM   #13
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Default Re: Body Language vs Detect Lies

If your intent is to be good at detecting lies, then Empathy and a very high skill level in Detect lies are the way to go. Body Language is secondary here - taking it is worthwhile if you also want to be able to read people really well in combat, otherwise you're good with only Detect Lies.
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Old 09-04-2018, 02:08 AM   #14
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Default Re: Body Language vs Detect Lies

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Originally Posted by Pposer View Post
If your intent is to be good at detecting lies, then Empathy and a very high skill level in Detect lies are the way to go. Body Language is secondary here - taking it is worthwhile if you also want to be able to read people really well in combat, otherwise you're good with only Detect Lies.
Bira
I'm here because of bot suspicion investigation, but anyway:

Body Language has no combat use in 4e (unless you take a non-obvious perk for feinting).
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Old 09-04-2018, 07:24 AM   #15
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Default Re: Body Language vs Detect Lies

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Originally Posted by Pposer View Post
If your intent is to be good at detecting lies, then Empathy and a very high skill level in Detect lies are the way to go. Body Language is secondary here - taking it is worthwhile if you also want to be able to read people really well in combat, otherwise you're good with only Detect Lies.
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Originally Posted by Social Engineering. page 36
Empathy allows a roll vs. IQ (or IQ-3, with Sensitive) to perceive whether someone is lying. This is a direct read of the liar’s emotional state; no Contest of skills is involved. The subject must be physically present, but need not be visible.
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Originally Posted by Empathy, Basic page 51
You can also use it to determine whether someone is lying . . . not what the truth is, but just whether they are being truthful with you.
Empathy: Sensitive (Cosmic, No Die Roll Required, +100%; Remote +50%) [13]

You can automatically tell if someone is lying to you, if you can see or hear them, even if they aren't in your presence (like someone on TV). You get +1 to your Detect Lies and Fortune-Telling skills, and to Psychology rolls to analyze a subject. The GM should also tell you what you "feel" about people.
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Old 09-12-2018, 12:11 PM   #16
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Default Re: Body Language vs Detect Lies

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Body Language has no combat use in 4e (unless you take a non-obvious perk for feinting).
Sure it does.

It tells bouncers and bodyguards on PSDs when they are facing a potential threat that justifies going to combat time, usually starting with a standing grapple that doesn't look all that violent to those outside the confrontation, but in situations with a high threat level, sometimes engaging the threat with a weapon.

What other skill would you use to tell which of a crowd of a couple of hundred could potentially pose a threat to your principal?

Sure, Observation could spot a concealed weapon, but depending on the situation, it might be perfectly legal and normal to carry a concealed weapon and, in any case, it's extremely hard to spot one if you have no visual angle on the CCW holster from your position. Body Language tells you who is preparing himself for an act of violence and/or losing control of himself, so it is the best skill for security personnel to use when providing close protection.
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Old 09-12-2018, 12:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Body Language vs Detect Lies

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Sure it does.

It tells bouncers and bodyguards on PSDs when they are facing a potential threat that justifies going to combat time, usually starting with a standing grapple that doesn't look all that violent to those outside the confrontation, but in situations with a high threat level, sometimes engaging the threat with a weapon.

What other skill would you use to tell which of a crowd of a couple of hundred could potentially pose a threat to your principal?
That sounds like stuff happening before combat, not in combat.
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Old 09-12-2018, 01:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: Body Language vs Detect Lies

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That sounds like stuff happening before combat, not in combat.
It's the difference between spending the first seconds of combat mentally stunned and then reacting to a disastrous tactical situation or, alternatively, getting inside the OODA loop of the opposition because you identified the threat before he was in position to strike at your principal.

A lot of realistic combat encounters are decided mostly by the stuff that happens before combat time starts and the second-by-second resolution may actually only last a second or two.

Saying that the stuff that happens before the first shot is fired 'has no combat use' is a very long way from the truth.
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Old 09-12-2018, 02:37 PM   #19
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Default Re: Body Language vs Detect Lies

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Body Language has no combat use in 4e (unless you take a non-obvious perk for feinting).
It could work as a Complimentary Skill in a Feint.

Also, if you use some optional rules that make Aiming and Evaluating require skill rolls, then it's a very strong Complimentary Skill.



Actually, in both of the above, it's probably the only skill I'd allowed as a Compliment outside of some very rare edge cases (Psychology if you've studied your opponent's psychological make-up, etc).
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:07 PM   #20
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Default Re: Body Language vs Detect Lies

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
That sounds like stuff happening before combat, not in combat.
Well, the difference between 'not surprised', 'surprised', and 'totally surprised' does get applied in combat.
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