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Old 06-10-2018, 12:53 PM   #11
ak_aramis
 
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Default Re: Slower fuel-efficient jump drive implications?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Sorry, too many numbers without enough explanation. I can't make head or tail out of what you think you've demonstrated.
Your approach (changing the cost of the hardware) is the wrong approach. It causes too many other changes in a cascade, since almost all editions prices are inter-related with other vehicle types

More explanation on what I showed.

So, without changing the costs of drives, fuel, or hardware (because in Traveller, those are assumed to be based upon man-hours and materials taken to make them) and the same proportional profit margin... just changing the fuel used for jump and the time taken (because that affects the prices needed to make the payments).

The cost of a ton of cargo at J1 moves from about KCr1 to about KCr2.1
Mid Passage goes from KCr8 to KCr18.5
High Passage goes from KCr10 to KCr23.5
Low Passage should change similarly, but I didn't work it out. I'd estimate the cost goes to about KCr 2.1

The process of figuring prices is simple but long:
  • Build a ship that has nothing but cargo.
  • Work out the costs for that ship per ton of cargo
  • Work out the changes in cargo space for the lowered fuel use.
  • Figure out the cargo cost for the new version.
  • Mark up that the same amount as the original.
  • From that, figure out the cost changes for a stateroom carrying a mid passenger (4 cargo tons go away, plus you have to pay maintenance and increased mortgage, Life support, and mark up the total the same as prior)
  • Figure out the costs for high passage in a similar way as MP, but accounting for the 1/8 of a steward's salary, time, Life support, and stateroom. Mark the total up the same way.
  • Figure out the Low Passage, which costs half a ton, plus mortgage increase, maintenance increase, and life support, and 1/20 of a medic's Stateroom, Life Support, Salary.

Doing it totally right would be to build the ships at a range of tonnages and averaging the calculations, and repeating for each jump number and tech level.
The 400Td price point is about midway between worst and best.
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Old 06-10-2018, 01:35 PM   #12
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Slower fuel-efficient jump drive implications?

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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
Your approach (changing the cost of the hardware) is the wrong approach. It causes too many other changes in a cascade, since almost all editions prices are inter-related with other vehicle types
I specified that _if_ an alternative drive ship were to be even semi-competitive that it would have to be much cheaper to build and operate.

Your work showed that if it were not substantiually cheaper to build and/or operate it would not be at all competitive.

I have trouble seeing how my statement was wrong.

If the original poster wants his alternative drive to be anything but scrap metal after Imperial contact he needs to change more than the fuel consumption
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Old 06-10-2018, 01:43 PM   #13
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Slower fuel-efficient jump drive implications?

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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
More explanation on what I showed.

So, without changing the costs of drives, fuel, or hardware (because in Traveller, those are assumed to be based upon man-hours and materials taken to make them) and the same proportional profit margin... just changing the fuel used for jump and the time taken (because that affects the prices needed to make the payments).
If you do those things, the slower drives are immediately priced out of the market and have no effect. However, there's no reason a different type of jump drive needs to have the same cost. For a simple example, let's just assume that our slow drive has exactly the same stats at J3 as a regular drive at J1 -- it occupies 2% of hull, requires PP-1, and uses 10% fuel to jump. This means a 'slow J3' ship costs about the same as a J1 ship; in terms of cost per unit cargo, it's typically about 40% of the cost of a standard J3 depending on which rules you use. This won't be terribly competitive even then, as it's much slower, but it may reach the point of having specialized uses.
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Old 06-10-2018, 02:14 PM   #14
cptbutton
 
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Default Re: Slower fuel-efficient jump drive implications?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
If the original poster wants his alternative drive to be anything but scrap metal after Imperial contact he needs to change more than the fuel consumption
I don't want it to succeed, I asked to make sure it won't blow up the OTU.

I wanted to start the PCs off in a knockoff of Cherryh's Union/Alliance "Downbelow Station" setting but adding the OTU in later maybe.

Consensus here and on FB is that it won't, the Imperials et al will just say "how quaint" and ignore it. Jump space theorists will be all over it for research, and the Scouts and others may want it for special cases, but merchants and navies won't care.

And it will be be replaced eventually, yes, as outside merchants move in, Islanders buy outside ships, the tech level upgrades to make proper jump drives, etc. But that won't happen overnight. It will take years to decades for slowjump ships to disappear entirely, especially if I keep the merchanter cartel aspect.

And slowjump ships may persist out in the boonies even longer.

Eidt: Thanks to everyone for their comments.

Last edited by cptbutton; 06-10-2018 at 03:11 PM.
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