TL8 Gadgeteers and TL12 Genetic Engineering

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

A TL8 gadgeteer is capable of achieving skill 30 without that much effort, so a -20 to the conception roll is not that severe of a penalty. What about a TL8 gadgeteer making TL10 racial templates though? The template can still reach 500 points with radical species modification without much difficulty, it is just more of a generalist than a specialist. It would only be -10 to concept rolls, $1.25 million for the facility, and $4.2 million for the prototype (probably a bioroid)

Biotech clearly states that price is multiplied by 10, not 3.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Well, according to the gadgeteering rules on B475, he's at -20 to skill rolls for going up 4 TLs.

I'd tend to say "No" even if he could cope with that, because I have some clue about how invention is done in the real world (I have a couple of patents) and there are limits to the degree of outright ignorance of basic principles (as measured by 4 TLs of difference) that I can suspend disbelief over.

In the real world people don't have Gadgeteer, and use the normal invention rules which are much harsher.

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Biotech clearly states that price is multiplied by 10, not 3.

Really? Where? I just read the Genetic Engineering in Play section (Biotech, pp. 17-18), and it says nothing about x10 price (or anything about prices changing for Gadgeteers). As I read it, the only difference for gadgeteers concerns the required skills. You may be confusing it with Lab Biohazard Procedures.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

In the real world people don't have Gadgeteer.

And I have trouble believing in people, no matter how cinematic the game claims to be, who can invent things that modify hard-to-observe phenomena when they don't know the corresponding science. If you can do things like that, the TL system seems like an unnecessary complication.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Really? Where? I just read the Genetic Engineering in Play section (Biotech, pp. 17-18), and it says nothing about x10 price (or anything about prices changing for Gadgeteers). As I read it, the only difference for gadgeteers concerns the required skills. You may be confusing it with Lab Biohazard Procedures.

p. 41 Experimental Procedures my friend:

Biotech may be available at one TL earlier than listed, as an “experimental procedure.” This includes early human trials of specific biomod processes, experimental gengineering projects, and so on. In general, an experimental process will cost at least 10 times as much as normal. This is very common in cinematic genetic engineering.

So from TL 8 to TL 12 it will be x10.000. And I personally like to multiply the price by two if there is modification of species and by four if there is radical modification of species too (as per Life´s Price Tag p. 65 "The GM may increase the cost for any process that involves radical modifications even if they cost no points: doubling cost is reasonable"), totalling x40.000 in this case I think (500 CPs x 40.000 x $1.000 = $20.000.000.000).

Pd. This is of course a way of approaching the reality of things, you can always ignore any realistic rules to play in a high cinematic or unrealistic campaign.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

p. 41 Experimental Procedures my friend:

[I]Biotech may be available at one TL earlier than listed, as an “experimental procedure.”.

That's not gadgeteering of course. It's based on conventional inventing.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

That's not gadgeteering of course. It's based on conventional inventing.

Because everybody needs Gadgeteers to be even more unbalanced and invent things at God-mode without normal costs applying to them not even needing to say so in their advantage description because potato, or because Gadgeteers pay exactly the same costs that "conventional inventors" by Campaign p. 474? No thank you to the first one and right pay just exactly what I said to the second one.

Pd. Or call it even more unrealistic, unbalanced and cinematic than intended.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Biotech may be available at one TL earlier than listed, as an “experimental procedure.” This includes early human trials of specific biomod processes, experimental gengineering projects, and so on. In general, an experimental process will cost at least 10 times as much as normal. This is very common in cinematic genetic engineering.

So from TL 8 to TL 12 it will be x10.000.

I don't see that the first paragraph support the latter statement. TL 12 is not "one TL earlier" and that paragraph says nothing about multiple paragraphs. There's no special warrant to suppose you can do it at all, but if you can, it could just as well be far more than 10 times as much. If if went to 100 times as much then TL8 to TL12 would be 10,000,000, for example.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't see that the first paragraph support the latter statement. TL 12 is not "one TL earlier" and that paragraph says nothing about multiple paragraphs. There's no special warrant to suppose you can do it at all, but if you can, it could just as well be far more than 10 times as much. If if went to 100 times as much then TL8 to TL12 would be 10,000,000, for example.

It is known as inherent logic. If by TL8 you can discover things from TL9 at ×10 cost and by TL9 you can discover things from TL10 at ×10 cost, then by TL8 you can discover things from TL10 at ×(10×10) cost. What is so hard to understand if it is just basic arithmetics? Do you really need to work in your maths so much or are you just trying to apply your own version of the affirmation of the consequent? Because in this specific case it is not an affirmation of the consequent, it is a linear equation which automatically and inherently destroys any other points of view unless you attack its basic foundations. Even if the paragraph does not make it possible to develop technologies over TL+1 we discussed this from the assumption that it is possible to do it, and its cost is not going to be any cheaper/more costly because potato so please justify your points with the rules of the game.

[ericthered]

I wouldn't let a TL8 Gadgeteer use TL12 Genetic Engineering. Its cinematic enough that I'd just say "Tell me what you want". I might consult bio-tech in order to build requested features or say whats easy or hard, but I wouldn't say "You have access to all TL12 Genetic Engineering"