The Problem With Magic

[maximara]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

True. In the Golden Age, intelligent heroes were common, though they were not exactly uncommon in the Marvel Silver Age (Bruce Banner, Reed Richards, Peter Parker, Hank Pym, Tony Stark, Hank McCoy, Charles Xavier etc). Of course, there is no particular reason why a 750 point superhero or supervillain with mental powers should not have an IQ 20 (other than if the GM is trying to impose some sort of artificial realism to an otherwise unrealistic setting).

I don't think even the Silver Age Lex Luthor had an IQ 20. Science! and Inventor! seem more logical for that character. Especially given that Einstein (who Luthor considered smarter then he was) has an IQ 15.

This is a problem with many Silver Age characters Marvel or DC: is what we are seeing actually high IQ or something like Gadgeteer, Science!, or Inventor! ? Given the dumb things they can do I would say the later.

Remember a super high Attribute is going to result in ridiculously high Will roles and high defaults for skills.

Take Superman for example. Despite his super intellect he couldn't replicate Luthor's kryptonite antidote formula after over a million tries despite Superman himself building and stocking Luthor's lab. Heck, Superman could go back in time as a phantom and watch Luthor make the antidote but this solution doesn't occur to him either.

Either Superman had the worse luck in the world or he just isn't that smart and that "super intellect" is actually is something else.

Regarding the superhero or supervillain with mental powers why go for an IQ 20? A high Will or power spesific Talents with generally serve the same function and makes more sense then turning the hero/villain into Washu Jr.

[AlexanderHowl]

Well, IQ 20 is cheaper than buying one level of a Wildcard skill with +1 Per and +1 Will. Because of the way that skill-to-skill-to defaults work, it is actually the same cost to build an IQ 20 character with Engineer (Electronics)-30 and default the other Engineer specialties at 27 (244 points) as it is to build an IQ 15 character with Inventor 25! (244 points). The former character is much more competent than the latter character, and the former character is arguably a better Inventor.

Of course, with 750 points, there is nothing preventing you from purchasing IQ 20, Gadgeteer (Quick), and Inventor!-30. At that point, you have a character who can build a TL11 spaceship from the parts in a local junkyard in a day.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Well, IQ 20 is cheaper than buying one level of a Wildcard skill with +1 Per and +1 Will.

On the surface it looks that way but Wildcard skills have other benefits that high normal skills don't have. The no familiarity or TL penalties is a big one in this regard. Then there are the Wildcard Point which can be used like Character points to change success rolls.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Because of the way that skill-to-skill-to defaults work, it is actually the same cost to build an IQ 20 character with Engineer (Electronics)-30 and default the other Engineer specialties at 27 (244 points) as it is to build an IQ 15 character with Inventor 25! (244 points). The former character is much more competent than the latter character, and the former character is arguably a better Inventor.

This runs into the issue of overly high skill levels as explained on B172. Past 20 it makes more sense (and generally is more cost effective) to put points into techniques (which can be eliminated by the Wildcard skill) then sending the skill into orbit.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Of course, with 750 points, there is nothing preventing you from purchasing IQ 20, Gadgeteer (Quick), and Inventor!-30. At that point, you have a character who can build a TL11 spaceship from the parts in a local junkyard in a day.

This might be redundant as Inventor! "Can replace any skill roll required for inventing (p. B473) or gadgeteering (p. B475)!" (GURPS Power-Ups 7) Under Hyper-Competency the ability to find parts is also covered eliminating Scrounging or more specialized skills. It can also have Weird Science as part of its skill set.

With Wildcard Points there is less incentive to send an attribute or the skill itself into orbit.

[AlexanderHowl]

Considering that gadgeteers at TL8 suffers a -23 to skill for the concept roll and prototype construction roll to make a TL11 spacecraft, they need a skill 30 to have a hope of succeeding (even taking x30 as long, they would be rolling against a 12 without help).

[maximara]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Considering that gadgeteers at TL8 suffers a -23 to skill for the concept roll and prototype construction roll to make a TL11 spacecraft, they need a skill 30 to have a hope of succeeding (even taking x30 as long, they would be rolling against a 12 without help).

The problem there is superscience totally hoses the TL modifiers. For example antimatter is normally TL10 but on Britannica-5 it is TL5^ .

Remember Inventor! can include Weird Science which "allows you to formulate astonishing new crackpot scientific
theories that are far ahead of their time . . . or at least utterly different from the usual assumptions of your tech level."

So that TL11 spacecraft can effectively count as a TL8^ one. Which means no TL penalty, eliminating the need for a insanely high skill.

Star Trek (original series) has this issue where things look like TL9 but are actually TL6^ with regards to much of their technology. This is how the Iotians were, per Worlds of the Federation, able to go from TL6 to Federation TL so quickly with just one part (the transtator).

If the Federation was true TL9 then the Iotians would have be at a staggering -15 to dismantle the communicator without breaking the transtator, another -15 to understand how the transtator worked, and -15 to make their own transtator. That is silly to the point of ridiculousness. Ergo the Federation is TL6^ with some TL(6+x) equipment rather then TL9.

In fact as most science fiction goes technology is generally more TL(current TL)^ then a higher TL.

In a 4 color Supers setting superscience abounds to the point that the GURPS TL system for all practical purposes breaks down. In fact this disconnect between the Tech the villains and heroes regularly mess with and the average joe on the street is so bad that it is called the 'Reed Richards is Useless Trope'

[AlexanderHowl]

I do not think Weird Science works like that. It only gives a +1 to concept and prototype rolls when combined with Gadgeteer. It still suffers the normal Complexity and TL penalties for inventions (^ only applies to superscience, not divergent technology). The original Star Trek was TL (7+5)^ by the way, not TL 7^.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I do not think Weird Science works like that. It only gives a +1 to concept and prototype rolls when combined with Gadgeteer. It still suffers the normal Complexity and TL penalties for inventions (^ only applies to superscience, not divergent technology). The original Star Trek was TL (7+5)^ by the way, not TL 7^.

How do you figure that? It seems to me there were things they couldn't do at all that are certainly listed as TL12 devices; they had no nanotech, no genetic engineering, one very large computer to a starship—my goodness, even we have more advanced computers than they did, in most ways. Admittedly they had superscience like FTL/time travel and teleportation, but their general tech was the "old SF" vision of the future, before the implications of information technology had sunk in.

[AlexanderHowl]

They also had pills that could regrow missing organs in minutes, disintigrators, force shields that offered complete immunity to lasers, stealth in space, incredibly efficient antimatter technology, replicators, artificial gravity, tractor beams, etc. They were a divergent technology that possessed superscience miracles the equivalent of TL 12, and they encountered even more advanced technologies.

[edk926]

But did they have a problem with Magic?

[AlexanderHowl]

Good point. Anyway, I have moved away from the spells and enchanted items of Magic because I do not feel that they allow for an exploration of more than one very limited type of magic. In Fantasy, Powers, Supers, and Thaumatology, we get different types of magic that allow GMs and players to go beyond Magic to represent the magical systems of their favorite series. For example, it would be very difficult to represent the magic of the Dresden Files with the system in Magic, but it is possible through using some of the other magical systems in GURPS.