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Old 03-29-2019, 04:06 PM   #121
ericthered
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

No AP gain.

All out defense (dodge). No step.
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Old 03-30-2019, 12:37 AM   #122
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

ffuuuuuuuu

I made a right-handed punch to a random hit location and I rolled an 18, so no point bothering to check which location I was targeting...

Got a 12 on the Unarmed Critical Miss Table... a TRIP. I make a DX roll to try and avoid falling.

As per before, rolls like this to avoid falling cost an AP, so I am down to 0 AP remaining now. =/

I rolled a 9 against my DX of 12 reduced to 11 which should be a success...

But I forgot to apply the "any roll to avoid falling is at -3" so my modified DX should actually be 8, meaning I just barely fail! FALLING NOW.

I want to use my Breakfall technique, but I'm all out of AP, so I need to burn another FP to get some!

I reduce from 9/12 to 8/12 FP and receive 50% of my AP, bringing me up to 6/12 AP again.

I haven't passed another breakpoint by spending MORE than starting FP/5 (that's per every 3 FP spent, as that is more than 2.4 FP) but since I've spent 1/3 of my FP (~33%) my base ST is reduced by 1/6, so 5/6 of 12 is 10 exactly, so I am finally weak enough to suffer -1 to my damage!

Since I have just lost another FP, I must make a HT roll for "Hitting the Wall". I am rolling against HT 11 (12-1) +5 = 16. I do not believe I would get my +2 training bonus, because what I am using my FP for is for Breakfall, which is not a specialty of Boxers.

I must roll, since my score is not 19 or higher.... and I got a 17... a failure...

Quote:
actually a CRITICAL failure. I don't merely suffer 1 HP, I suffer THRUST crushing...

On the plus side: since my ST lowered, my thrust is lower! It's d-2 instead of d-1, yay!

The roll is a 4-2 resulting in 2 injury.

Reading "crushing" I instinctively thought "wait, can I use Roll With Blow to reduce that?" But since the condition is when you are "hit" with a crushing "attack", I'd say I don't fulfill the condition for using it. The only reason I can figure that they would bother to say this is crushing damage is that anyone with Injury Tolerance (Crushing Only) could reduce the injury? I'm not sure about Damage Resistance though, since this is already "injury", not basic damage.

So let's see... I lose 2 more HP (for purposes of hit locations, I'm thinking "Hitting the Wall" should count as Torso injury? That's where your lungs and stuff are...) reducing me from 7/12 HP to 5/12 HP.
please ignore the above quote, I miscalculated, 17s are only crit fail for skill 15 or less, since I'm skill 16 it's only a normal failure so I only lose 1 HP, NOT thrust...

This is not more than 1/3 of HP so there's no "Partial Injuries" counter to worry about on the torso yet.

Quote:
This also means I suffer -2 to DX/IQ due to SHOCK, which results in a loss of 2 AP unless I can mitigate that with a HT roll. I roll an 11, which is a failure (I needed an 8 or less!) so I lose 2 AP, reducing my AP from 6/12 to 4/12.
Actually, I only suffer -1 from shock, and lost 1 AP. I still failed the roll to mitigate, but my AP is only reduced from 6/12 to 5/12.

I'm now able to spend 1 AP to attempt to do that Breakfall using the Acrobatics skill that I have at default... My modified DX of 11 would have given me a default Acrobatics at skill 5...

Quote:
but now the -2 to DX from shock reduces that to skill 3... that's still enough for me to attempt it!
Actually skill 4 due to only a -1 from shock.

I feel like it's too late RP-wise to back out of this commitment, wanting to breakfall was the reason I burned my FP in the first place!

I got a 15... a failure. Actually because of skill 3, that is a CRITICAL failure.
When you roll a critical failure, the GM determines what happens to you. It is always something bad – the higher the roll, the worse the result.
I guess I have to determine this since I am the GM. I'm not aware of any established ways to deal with critical failures using acrobatics techniques. I'm especially not sure how to deal with "the higher the roll, the worst the result" except to establish a "Margin of Critical Failure" which is how many points you crit fail by.

Quote:
In this case, a 12 is by 0 (not a crit fail, just a normal fail), a 13 is by 1, a 14 by 2 and a 15 by 3. But what should MOCF mean?

The simplest thing I can think of (not very imaginative!) is to apply a penalty equal to the margin. So, Green is reduced from 4/12 AP to 1/12 AP.
In this case, due to skill 4, a 13 is 0, a 14 is 1, a 15 is 2, so the MOCF was only 2, so I only lost 2 more AP. Breakfall dropped me from 5/12 > 4/12 (I forgot to apply its attempt cost to my earlier calculations!) so this brings me to 2/12 AP.

Now I have to roll the damage from the fall. But first, to determine hit location: rolled a 7, it's to the RIGHT leg now... sub-table B got a 4, I'm landing on the KNEE, this counts as a "joints" hit from crushing attacks.

Huh... since I fell down, I am now in a "lying" posture with all appropriate penalties to my active defenses. It occurs to me that it is strange though, that "Breakfall" can make you "Crouching" instead of "Lying" after a fall, but nothing in between.

It might be interesting to say for example, allow crouching on MoS 2, Kneeling on MoS 1, and on MoS 0 allow the player to choose between crawling or sitting. THOUGHTS?

Since a leg is about a yard long, and the knee is half that length, the formula 21.4 x 1 x 0.5 = 10.7, the squareroot of that is ~3.27 rounded to nearest whole number gives me velocity of 3.

HPxV/100 = 12x3/100 = 0.36 which means I take 1d-2 crushing damage to the right knee. I roll a 1, and with the -2 gives a -1, meaning NO damage is taken. LUCKY. No need to bother with a Roll With Blow, I guess.

I'm at 1/12 AP 8/12 FP 5/12 AP and lying down!
correction: 2/12 AP + 8/12 FP + 6/12 HP, still lying down of course

BUT WAIT: I haven't used my FREE STEP yet. Saving it to do a no-cost retreat would be pointless if I'm unable to retreat because I'm unable to defend againt a surprise attack...
B385 "If you lie down or are knocked prone, your lower half occupies the hex you were standing in and your upper half can occupy any adjacent hex"
My legs are still in your hex, but my upper half is now occupying some adjacent hex... I assume I could choose whatever hex I like on my own side, but not the 3 hexes on your side since that would normally require evading you to occupy those!

I will choose to fall backward, easier to envision than falling into my left or right. I think this means I would be in a supine posture, if I had fallen forward I would be in a prone posture.

I use my free step to shimmy 1 further hex away from you
Now my legs are no longer in your hex (they are 1 hex in front of you) and my upper body is 2 hexes in front of you.

Actually, consulting Pyramid 3/44p10:
dropping from standing to prone in one move (three levels) is 1 AP.
I don't see why that should only apply to VOLUNTARY posture changes. If you involuntarily fall down and don't take any damage or try to breakfall/roll with blow then you wouldn't lose any AP, so it's like cheating!

I don't like that, so I will apply the AP costs for changing to lower posture when you are forced there or go there accidentally too! It only makes sense, since you're disoriented and stuff!

For that reason... yeah I actually am at 1/12 AP in the end. Losing 2 less AP than I previously thought was countered by forgetting to apply two separate 1 AP costs (Breakfall and "Facing and Posture Changes")

I could have opted to spend my last AP doing another 60 degree turn so that you don't start in my side hex, but I figure my defenses are so penalized that I'll fail regardless of what I do, so I may as well conserve my AP.

Oh, and since I can do a free 60 degree turn without spending AP, I'm going to keep my upper body planted and rotate my legs away from you! Now they are front and to the left of you, so you can't reach them with a kick without stepping first! This is per B392 (Multi-Hex Figures) the head rotates, the lower body (tail or legs) follow!

since you did not have to defend, go ahead and make your HT roll to recover AP, then choose your next maneuver
(your last post was 19s for tier 3, so your next will be 20s)
(note that if you can force me to lose 2 AP, I will have to burn another FP and drop to ~58% meaning my HT would reduce to 10 and 20 seconds is when my adernalin would wear off, meaning my next attack would suffer tier 3 penalties!)

Last edited by Plane; 03-30-2019 at 01:38 AM.
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Old 04-01-2019, 05:51 AM   #123
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Well, I was worried that I was letting you fish for criticals... And I suppose you caught one. I'm not fond of critical miss tables in general, but we've certainly been playing with them.

Quote:
It might be interesting to say for example, allow crouching on MoS 2, Kneeling on MoS 1, and on MoS 0 allow the player to choose between crawling or sitting. THOUGHTS?
That sounds fair and interesting to me. I'm not sure that you should be taking damage though.

Quote:
Actually, consulting Pyramid 3/44p10:
dropping from standing to prone in one move (three levels) is 1 AP.
I don't see why that should only apply to VOLUNTARY posture changes. If you involuntarily fall down and don't take any damage or try to breakfall/roll with blow then you wouldn't lose any AP, so it's like cheating!

I don't like that, so I will apply the AP costs for changing to lower posture when you are forced there or go there accidentally too! It only makes sense, since you're disoriented and stuff!
I agree that a position change should cost AP, but wouldn't that price be paid by breakfall?

I have very conflicted feelings about movement while prone, but I suppose we can work with this.

-------------------------------------------

I recover 1 AP, and am now at 5/10

There are two options here. One is to step forward and kick that left leg. You would defend at dodge -3 (prone) -1 (injured leg... though that doesn't actually make sense). But I've only got around a 60% chance to hit, and deprives me of a free retreat. If I want to run out the clock, this is a fantastic opportunity to do so.

So I'll step back wards and evaluate. Get up. Take your time. Stick some weight on that bum leg. I can get most of the benefit of attacking while prone just by letting you try to dodge on an injured leg.
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Old 04-01-2019, 10:38 PM   #124
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

I don't think you recovered AP, log shows you rolled a 12 which is greater than 9, you had to roll equal or loss.

It occurs to me that the house rule of losing 1 AP per Margin of Critical Failure on failed acrobatics is pretty extreme. I think like AP lost due to injury that perhaps a HT roll should've been allowed to mitigate that. Would you be opposed to this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
That sounds fair and interesting to me. I'm not sure that you should be taking damage though.
Doesn't feel like falling if there's no risk of it. The low height makes that risk minimal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I agree that a position change should cost AP, but wouldn't that price be paid by breakfall?
A cost not borne by someone who doesn't attempt the technique. The benefit of the technique is if it works to merely have you crouch avoid you landing in a lying position, you avoid the 1 AP cost for that since you don't actually change posture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I have very conflicted feelings about movement while prone, but I suppose we can work with this.
Same, but short of annihilating the Step altogether and just always using Movement Points (giving MP/10 where maneuvers call for a step) there isn't much of a solve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
There are two options here. One is to step forward and kick that left leg.
You know what just occurred to me... it seems very strange when lying down that you are obligated to have both your legs occupying the same hex. Even though most can't do 180 degree splits, most people could manage a 60 degree angle between their legs, and most moderately athletic ones could manage 120.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
You would defend at dodge -3 (prone) -1 (injured leg... though that doesn't actually make sense).
Yeah... I was actually reviewing the "Lame" disadvantages which would apply when eventually crippling a leg...

These don't even reduce dodge at all! B141 requires reducing Basic Move, but not Basic Speed. MA116 mentions "None of this applies if you’re sitting, kneeling, or lying down – just use the
usual penalties for your posture" in respect to DX penalties as another example.

There is no dodge penalty listed for "Missing Legs" which represents a 1-legged person and which I think is what you are meant to use if a leg is crippled. I would interpret "Using crutches or a peg leg, you can stand up and walk slowly." to mean someone with this can normally NOT stand at all (even though it is possible for people to stand 1-legged) and so would always suffer the posture penalties of a lower posture (perhaps "kneeling" on a nonexistent leg?)

The -1 and -2 seem like lesser versions of the -4 when crawling/lying. A -2 to dodge is essentially tying the AD penalty from kneeling/sitting.

I think in a lying or crawling position someone with healthy legs would be at an advantage (you could use your legs to help push yourself out of the way) so I think it might make sense to apply those dodge penalties even when lying down...

It's just perplexing there's no dodge penalties for people who have the Lame disadvantage. It seems like someone with a crippled leg ought to be at least -1 to dodge when trying to avoid stuff in a crawling/lying posture compared to someone with a leg at 100% health. I think perhaps when fully crippled, the -2 from the previous tier should still apply, perhaps even increase to -3. That scales well with the -6 to skill experienced with One Leg.

In that case, someone with BOTH legs crippled really ought to suffer a -6 to dodge in addition to the penalty for lying down!

I would say when standing though, that the dodge penalty is partly accounting for the difficulty of remaining standing after your dodge. I think I'd let someone waive that if they were willing to let themselves fall down as part of the dodge. That might just be the "dive" bonus though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I'll step back wards and evaluate. Get up. Take your time. Stick some weight on that bum leg. I can get most of the benefit of attacking while prone just by letting you try to dodge on an injured leg.
Stepping back puts you 2 hexes away from my upper body.

Since Evaluate you in turn since that requires "reachable with a single Move and Attack maneuver" I might just barely be able to do that since a step could narrow the gap to one and my lower body would actually be in your front-left again.

Since this is the turn after losing FP, I must now make my "Persistance is Futile" will roll. My IQ 10 is reduced to 9 due to fatigue, +3 means I roll vs 12. Training bonus is N/A since I lost the FP doing acrobatics, +5 is N/A because choosing an offensive maneuver NOW (when I am suffering shock) wouldn't be wise anyway, even if aggression before I accrue another -1 to dodge would be good.

I roll a 5, success. That said, I don't think I'm OBLIGATED to attack you, so I'm going to do an all-out defense anyway (double option), using my free step to put another yard between us (now it's 3) and use my free 60-degree facing change to swing my legs from my front-right to my back-right hex, making it harder for you to target them.

You have 4/10 AP, roll against HT again to see if your Evaluate got you any this time, then choose your next maneuver.
(also please comment on whether or not you agree it might be okay to make a HT roll for MoS to mitigate AP loss from critical failure on acrobatics, like is done for AP loss due to injury... I think I really made that inherently too exhausting

Last edited by Plane; 04-01-2019 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 04-04-2019, 05:44 AM   #125
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I don't think you recovered AP, log shows you rolled a 12 which is greater than 9, you had to roll equal or loss.
Oh, I read that wrong. Good catch.

Quote:
It occurs to me that the house rule of losing 1 AP per Margin of Critical Failure on failed acrobatics is pretty extreme. I think like AP lost due to injury that perhaps a HT roll should've been allowed to mitigate that. Would you be opposed to this?
I don't remember this rule: I'd think loosing an extra AP from a critical failure would be sufficiently punishing.

Quote:
A cost not borne by someone who doesn't attempt the technique. The benefit of the technique is if it works to merely have you crouch avoid you landing in a lying position, you avoid the 1 AP cost for that since you don't actually change posture.
I was thinking that it costs 1 AP regardless of the outcome, whether you stay up, fall down without resistance, or fail a breakfall.


Quote:
You know what just occurred to me... it seems very strange when lying down that you are obligated to have both your legs occupying the same hex. Even though most can't do 180 degree splits, most people could manage a 60 degree angle between their legs, and most moderately athletic ones could manage 120.
Truth be told, I don't actually like hexes, and prefer raw distances.

Quote:
Yeah... I was actually reviewing the "Lame" disadvantages which would apply when eventually crippling a leg...
Given that its made for folks like long John Silver, that's not particularly surprising, but yeah, you'd think that the full dodge would apply to someone with walking aids. The walking aid section isn't mentioned in merely crippled legs though. And worse still, the Last gasp penalizes movement enough that I effectively can't outrun you with a crippled leg!

I'd be happy to switch to using simplified last gasp movement rules discussed in the gurps forum (not during this combat though)

Quote:
I would say when standing though, that the dodge penalty is partly accounting for the difficulty of remaining standing after your dodge. I think I'd let someone waive that if they were willing to let themselves fall down as part of the dodge. That might just be the "dive" bonus though.
Gurps also has pain subside rather quickly by default. You get a 1 second penalty, and that's it.

Quote:
You have 4/10 AP, roll against HT again to see if your Evaluate got you any this time, then choose your next maneuver.
(also please comment on whether or not you agree it might be okay to make a HT roll for MoS to mitigate AP loss from critical failure on acrobatics, like is done for AP loss due to injury... I think I really made that inherently too exhausting
Rolled a 10. So close!
Another evaluate.
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Old 04-04-2019, 10:02 PM   #126
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

(note: it would be good when we roll dice, to list key details of our maneuver choice, like for example whether or not we moved beforehand, within the summary of the dice roll as character limits allow. You can even make a no-roll post there before rolling if explanations require it. This just so we don't have to compare time-of-roll v. time-of-post in case someone rolled but tailored the description to the outcome)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I don't remember this rule: I'd think loosing an extra AP from a critical failure would be sufficiently punishing.
There's mention that critical failures ought to increase in severity based on the DEGREE to which you critically fail, that's why I figured there should be more AP lost (or at least more risk of AP being lost) depending on severity of the original failure.

Come to think of it though, critically failing an attack or defense doesn't react to severity at all. You roll on the same table the same number of times no matter how big a critical failure is. If you have skill 3 then a critical fail is equally bad whether you roll a 13 or an 18, even though the 18 should be much worse...

So yeah based on that, I'll only apply the loss of 1 extra AP (on top of the one already wasted attempting the technique) instead of 2.

This means I'm actually at 2/12 AP instead of 1/12...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I was thinking that it costs 1 AP regardless of the outcome, whether you stay up, fall down without resistance, or fail a breakfall.
Falling down without resistance and not being injured by it seems like it would be less taxing than attempting to actively break your fall. However it could be MORE taxing if you suffer injury from the fall (which breakfall might prevent) since losing HP would mean losing AP (mitigatable by HT roll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Given that its made for folks like long John Silver, that's not particularly surprising, but yeah, you'd think that the full dodge would apply to someone with walking aids.
LJS would probably have the "Peg Leg Fighting" perk (Power-Ups 2 page 6) which doesn't appear to reduce the DX penalty so I guess it shouldn't reduce the dodge penalty, but it does mention as one of its benefits...
may sideslip as an alternative to retreating, moving a yard to either
side instead of away – for you, staggering off to the side is as effective as retreating!
I don't recall any prohibition of Lame people from doing retreats/sideslips so all I can figure this to mean is there is no -1 penalty (+3 becomes +2, +1 becomes +0) for using a sideslip instead of a normal retreat. Not that huge an advantage unless the way behind you is blocked or you want to stay close to an enemy... I can't say I think the perk is necessarily worth a point. The other half (-1 to defend) only applies against all-out attacks, so unless you were already a Berserker (that's all you can do anyway) it wouldn't be that large a benefit since you might prefer not to do AOAs anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
worse still, the Last gasp penalizes movement enough that I effectively can't outrun you with a crippled leg!
YUP. This is why I think free step is broken. You get exhausted even trying to outpace someone wiggling across the ground. If, on the other hand, we were simply charging 1 AP per 20% of Movement Points, then the 1 AP you pay to move 1 yard would cost a Move 1 creature 5 AP to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I'd be happy to switch to using simplified last gasp movement rules discussed in the gurps forum (not during this combat though)
https://gamingballistic.com/2013/08/...ile-using-las/ wouldn't be any guarantee of winning AP subtraction game, as that's best done by using free steps. Going beyond that will still cost you 1 AP, the difference being that it takes you up to 50% move instead of 20% more move. For a Move 5 guy the free step is an initial 20%, so that's really only an increase from 20% for 1 AP to 30% for 1 AP.

The more significant benefit is that 2nd jump to 100% move for the 2nd AP.

Of course, that's harder to mitigate: "AP Maintenance Costs" can subtract 1 by passing a HT roll but needs MoS of 5 to mitigate two AP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Gurps also has pain subside rather quickly by default. You get a 1 second penalty, and that's it.
I think I'd let it just build up indefinitely (no cap) and have people roll HT each 2nd and subtract MoS from the pool. Now sure how to incorporate LPT/HPT into that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Rolled a 10. So close!
Another evaluate.
Your evaluate bonus builds to +2.
You are still at 4/10 AP.
Since you do not mention using your free step, you remain 3 yards away but you may perform a 0-cost retreat on your next turn if attacked.

March 25 you were at 18 seconds of count on tier 3 penalties (target 22) when you did AOD:Dodge
*March 29 you did it again, count grew to 19
*April 1 when you started your Evaluate, count grew to 20
*April 4 your 2nd evaluate, count grew to 21
*after your next turn concludes (22 seconds since) my following turn will be when I suffer the Tier 3 penalties on the right leg.

As I did not have to make an active defense against you, I may make a HT roll to recover AP. I roll a 7, giving a MoS of 4 vs my HT 11 (12-1 due to FP loss) meaning that I recover 2 AP, and am now tied with you at 4/12 AP left.

As before, I am going to do another AOD:Double and use my free step squirm another yard away from you (the distance between our hexes is now 4 yards)

Make another HT roll and choose your next maneuver.
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Old 04-08-2019, 07:08 AM   #127
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Red will evaluate and step 1 step closer. He recovers 1 AP.

Quote:
Falling down without resistance and not being injured by it seems like it would be less taxing than attempting to actively break your fall. However it could be MORE taxing if you suffer injury from the fall (which breakfall might prevent) since losing HP would mean losing AP (mitigatable by HT roll)
I disagree. However, looking through my journal and memories it appears I have some sort of instinctual breakfall, as I always seem to come out of falls in rolls uninjured (I'm otherwise as coordinated as a one-legged ostrich)

Quote:
YUP. This is why I think free step is broken. You get exhausted even trying to outpace someone wiggling across the ground. If, on the other hand, we were simply charging 1 AP per 20% of Movement Points, then the 1 AP you pay to move 1 yard would cost a Move 1 creature 5 AP to do.
Free step isn't broken because its free. Its broken because it doesn't scale well. Up or down.

Quote:
I think I'd let it just build up indefinitely (no cap) and have people roll HT each 2nd and subtract MoS from the pool. Now sure how to incorporate LPT/HPT into that.
Incorporate pain thresholds either as modifiers to the HT rolls (+/-4?) or as modifiers on the base amount allocated. That still doesn't penalize a major wound to the torso after 1 minute. I'm fond of this system, but I'll quickly admit its not really gurps's damage system anymore.
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Old 04-09-2019, 03:00 PM   #128
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Your recovered 1 AP brings you up to 5/10 AP.

my HT roll failed with a 14, didn't get any AP this time, still at 4/12.

Tier 2 penalties now apply to my leg, BTW. However note that the reduced move and reduced dodge only apply "while standing" so they don't really matter right now since I'm in a lying posture.

AOD:double again, using free step to widen gap from 3 to 4 again.

Your Evaluate bonus is now +3, roll HT again to recover AP.
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Old 04-11-2019, 05:18 AM   #129
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

I will take the do nothing maneuver. Go on, get up. Give me a proper rest.

I recover no AP.
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Old 04-11-2019, 08:16 PM   #130
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

  • You do fail with the 14, but your target number would've been 13 not 9..

    I do the same ... and get a 16... also failing by 1 despite thinking my 15 would've also been a guarantee of success.

WHOOPS. I forgot you make the HT rolls for the previous turn at the start of the new one, so actually your 14 was a failure by 5 and I should not have added the +4 bonus yet so my roll of 16 for my previous HT roll for target 11 was also MoF of 5.

NOW is when you roll vs HT+4, and then I will also at the start of my new turn.

Also, choose your next maneuver.
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