Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by Izzy_B

If we are gonna take that into account, I gotta restate my previously explained theory in the last big thread about this topic position that specifically for cultural reasons the Jewish State wouldn't use Ogres to begin with, much less one with a name that in IDF slang means "someone too stupid to do anything but follow basic instructions".

I can honestly say I know nothing about the culture of the Jewish State. In fact I've learned more about it on these forums than anywhere else. In the context of ignorance, I ask the question: Could a cultural view change enough that it would be acceptable?

[ColBosch]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

I can honestly say I know nothing about the culture of the Jewish State. In fact I've learned more about it on these forums than anywhere else. In the context of ignorance, I ask the question: Could a cultural view change enough that it would be acceptable?

I tried to avoid this last time, but being of Jewish descent, there is absolutely nothing in our culture that would even suggest an aversion to automata aside from the Golem story itself. The tale is not taken seriously and if it is a parable about anything, it's about the misuse of the Name of God, not about automata. Israel employs robots as much as any other First World nation, in manufacturing, through software AI, and on the battlefield as drones.

Similarly, the idea that Islamic states would avoid cybertanks because of myths of Ifreeti and Djinn is astonishingly wrong-headed. The tales of such beings are fairy stories, no more than entertainment, and where they do appear in religious contexts, they are not literally believed.

Blunt talk: do not ever assume anything about a culture before talking to a member of it. While I am not a Jew due to technical reasons - which I will *NOT* get into here - I am still of the culture, and I know several Muslims, both American black and Arabic. We all agree that the very idea that the Jewish and Islamic nations would proscribe such effective weapons as Ogres due to non-canonical, vaguely-religious myths and tales is actually offensive.

[Mack_JB]

Even if they weren't initially developed due to cultural norms, they'd almost have to be developed later for survival of the State. If your enemies have them, and will use them on you -- you'll need some form of similar countermeasure.

[Izzy_B]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

Could a cultural view change enough that it would be acceptable?

Thats is a very good question given that there is no monolithic "Jewish culture" and that the various main groups of Jewish populations have shifted culturally over time. Given also that Israeli culture has shifted in the 71 years it has existed as I write these words, could an Israel of the future come to accept autonomous weapon platforms of this magnitude?

Jews do however have common ground in historical to modern discussions of the applications of the laws of war stated or derived from the Torah. These affect soldiers, commanders and rulers. While I am not a rabbi myself I've at least tried to learn about this subject within my own limitations of having to study what little has been translated. What is clear to me is that human autonomy in regards to laws and ways of war is extremely important.

That and given that Jewish lore and literature going as far back to the third century and the writings of the rabbis of the Babylonian Exile in the Talmud is that non-human agents/entities may be brought under control for short periods but ultimately they will attempt to betray their masters intentions or commands. This is also reflected in the story of the Golem of Prague of the 16th century.

Given that and that even the most secular of Israelis cant escape the history which formed culture, I'm going to stand by my idea that such a change would not in fact be possible.

However as the famous joke goes, "ask two Jews, get three opinions", please dont take what I say as the sole and authoritative answer.

[ColBosch]

Originally Posted by Izzy_B

Given that and that even the most secular of Israelis cant escape the history which formed culture, I'm going to stand by my idea that such a change would not in fact be possible.

Except that it already has. Israel employs automata, texts from hundreds of years ago be damned.

[Izzy_B]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

texts from hundreds of years ago be damned.

For millions of us Jews around the world, those texts matter. Torah, Talmud and the rabbinic literature matter to us now, in the present. They even matter to the IDF which works with Zomet Institute dealing with issues to deal with issues of technology and Jewish Law.

Also context is important. Note well I didnt speak broadly of all automation.

[Mack_JB]

So I don't know how accurate this report is, but from what I can find, Israel already has unmanned automatic systems for air (several drones), land, and sea ("Protector") use. It would appear the IDF is not so worried as to not develop stuff and use it now:

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles...0m/0na/020000c

[ColBosch]

And even if that weren't so, Ogre =/= the real world. Part of the point of science fiction is to imagine things that don't exist or are different.

But I tire of this debate; there's only so long I can bash my head against the wall. Do what you want at your table, but the Golem is a part of Ogre.

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

And even if that weren't so, Ogre =/= the real world. Part of the point of science fiction is to imagine things that don't exist or are different.

Ultimately, that's what this boils down to; it is "just a game" after all.

Thank you both for weighing in on it. I personally couldn't begin to discuss the culture in question. I'll be happy to keep my discussions to game context; that, I know. :-)

Now about those doors...

[Izzy_B]

Originally Posted by Mack_JB

So I don't know how accurate this report is, but from what I can find, Israel already has unmanned automatic systems for air (several drones), land, and sea ("Protector") use. It would appear the IDF is not so worried as to not develop stuff and use it now:

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles...0m/0na/020000c

When that article came out a few years ago I asked about its contents to some people I know in Israel including a few rabbis who sometimes consult on matters like this. Basically this is the money quote:

The lieutenant colonel added that the IDF had also decided the machines should always be placed under the command of a human officer.

It matches everything I've heard on the subject and aligns with my own thinking regarding religious laws of war wherein the actions of individuals matter. Technology may support identifying potential targets and recommending a kill lis but the decision to use potentially lethal force must be a human one.

As to the accuracy of the article, even though the Mainichi still sometimes falls into the "1973 trap" common to Japanese media, the author of this article is known to be very respectable.